Restrictions on driving to hikes?

[blisters]

I'm in Melbourne - anyone know if we're allowed to drive out into the country still to hike?

[neilmny]

Being out for excercise is allowed but you can't drive out into the bush.
Once out beyond the outer suburban area you will find illuminated roadside trailer signs telling you that if yo don't live there to go home.
You can also be subject to a $1650.00 fine by the police.

[Lophophaps]

See Bushwalking during pandemic,
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30990

This is the Victorian government policy on staying at home.
https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/sites/defau ... signed.pdf

[JohnR]

Yes Lophophaps that is the relevant Stay at Home Directions for Victoria.

As I read the Directions you are permitted to leave your residence to exercise provided you:

(1) comply with the restrictions on gathering (which essentially limits your interaction to 1 other person or those that you ordinarily reside with); and

(2) take reasonable steps to maintain a distance of 1.5 metres from all other persons (but not incuding a person you are walking with or those you ordinarily reside with).

There is nothing in the Directions which states you cannot travel by vehicle to your place of exercise, and nor do the Directions limit by distance or time the extent to which you can travel. It is simply the case that the reason for leaving your residence must be to exercise, and at all times you must observe (1) and (2) above.

The above interpretation also supports the intended operation / spirit of the Directions - being to prohibit acts that give rise to a genuine risk of transmission of COVID-19.

[blisters]

Do you believe then JohnR that you could drive say 100km from Melbourne and then start hiking? I thought I'd heard somewhere that people were basically banned from travel into the countryside unless they lived there, on penalty of a $1600 fine?

[blisters]

Actually I just found this - seems you can't:

13. Can I go for an outdoor hike or a long drive to the country?

No. As Daniel Andrews put it, "‘getting some exercise’ means going for a walk around the block or a bike ride to stretch your legs and get some fresh air. It means staying local – not driving for miles or being out all day." So no, you should not be going out and doing massive day hikes or driving down to your beach house for the day. You need to stay put.
https://www.timeout.com/melbourne/news/ ... ons-040220

[JohnR]

I am not sure Mr Andrews' interpretation (as he has stated to the media) would be ultimately applied.

The Directions do not define "exercise". There is nothing in the Directions that limit the nature of the exercise, the extent to which it can be undertaken or the place(s) where it can be undertaken.

Any law that attempts to remove or limit our basic civil rights would ordinarily be interpreted very strictly against those trying to enforce it. Clear wording would be needed in order for the Directions to operate as strictly as Mr Andrews is suggesting.

[blisters]

I would like to think you're right JohnR Seems to me, driving to an isolated place to walk should be far safer than anywhere in my local area. Walking on the Tan Track recently I had people puffing and blowing past me mere inches away several dozen times. Are you a lawyer btw?

[Lophophaps]

A little history. For many years laws were very detailed - this is allowed and that is not allowed. The details were so there could be no excuse about clarity. Trouble was that with very specific provisions the smart folks found ways around the law, a technicality.

Contemporary laws have an introductory section saying the goal of the law. The introduction is like an abstract with the rest of the document providing details. One good example is the Income Tax Assessment Act. Part IV A relates to general tax avoidance, so while a person or entity may not be in breach elsewhere, Part IV A applies. The general nature of Part IV A makes it hard to go around.

My reading of the current stay at home rules is that it is permitted to leave home for exercise, so walking nearby is allowed. I go for a short bike ride every other day. The rules and indeed all actions about the current situation have been done in a great hurry, so do not expect the well thought out words of a bill, legislation or regulation that is the case in normal times. Nuances are absent. Hence, there perhaps could have been further and better particulars stating that it is not permitted to only go a short way to exercise. Look at the other provisions that proscribe journeys.

One common fallback in law is to ask what a reasonable and prudent person would do having due regard for the prevailing circumstances. This may mean complying with or breaking the law or rules.

Based on the above it seems to me that the intent of the stay at home rules is to limit travel, and that to go more than a short way for exercise was the intent of the writers. It's not something I'd care to test on the road.

[blisters]

Yes not sure I'd care to test it myself after reading this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... kdown.html

[JohnR]

The overriding purpose of the Directions is to protect the public from COVID-19 by prohibiting acts that give rise to a genuine risk of transmission of the virus.

This is expressly stated in the Preamble within the Directions. Take a look at Part 1(1).

The Directions do not have a purpose of limiting travel. That is more a potential consequence of achieving the stated purpose.

I suppose a live example of this is the withdrawal of the imposition of the fine in the now infamous L plater case. Even though in that case when applying the Directions literally the young lady appeared to be in breach, the fine was withdrawn as it was inconsistent with the stated purpose. Her actions in simply driving on a public road with her mother were in no way creating a risk of transmission of the virus.

I suppose to sum up my point, when extraordinary powers are vested in authorities those powers must be exercised both with restraint and with strict adherence to their purpose.

These powers will not be interpreted like ordinary legislation such that a Court would easily venture outside the express words and stated purpose to find an extended operation or otherwise impose restrictions which are not apparent from the words of the Directions.

Agree that arguing this on the side of a highway (perhaps with someone who may not have even read the Directions) is another thing.

[blisters]

Yeh, seems to be up to the cop's discretion: "Mr Riordan was fined $1652 for “unnecessary travel”. The infringement notice stated it was owing to “travelling from Bonbeach to Red Hill to bike ride”, despite exercise being one of four permitted reasons to leave home in Victoria." “The police officer said you shouldn’t be leaving your home unless it’s for work. If you want to exercise you should do a run around your local area,” Mr Riordan, 34, said.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 54hye.html

[Baeng72]

Apparently it's OK to travel directly to holiday houses over the Easter weekend.
So, my tent is my holiday house, it'll be in the bush this Easter weekend and I need to travel (with it) to reach it.
I'll be avoiding all company and following social distancing, which is easy for a misanthrope like myself.
Job sorted! (note, the preceding was Sarcasm)

That exception is nuts.
Why let people travel to holiday houses? People will abuse loopholes, and seems unfair to punters who don't have a holiday house or whatever?

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 54hmy.html

[GPSGuided]

These public health laws are always hard to appreciate from an individual’s perspective. The risk of one person acting is tiny or trivial. But when it’s permitted for one, when a whole population moves, problem and consequences ensue. So we should just do our bit and contribute to reduce the sum of that population effect.

[Orbita_Serenitatem]

Yes Lophophaps that is the relevant Stay at Home Directions for Victoria.

As I read the Directions you are permitted to leave your residence to exercise provided you:

(1) comply with the restrictions on gathering (which essentially limits your interaction to 1 other person or those that you ordinarily reside with); and

(2) take reasonable steps to maintain a distance of 1.5 metres from all other persons (but not incuding a person you are walking with or those you ordinarily reside with).

There is nothing in the Directions which states you cannot travel by vehicle to your place of exercise, and nor do the Directions limit by distance or time the extent to which you can travel. It is simply the case that the reason for leaving your residence must be to exercise, and at all times you must observe (1) and (2) above.

The above interpretation also supports the intended operation / spirit of the Directions - being to prohibit acts that give rise to a genuine risk of transmission of COVID-19.

I have my pack ready for 4 days of hiking 'exercise' that would start in a State Park 65kms away - dropped of by car by a family member - then onto two Regional Parks and finish at my house on Monday.

All three parks are open except camping grounds, table settings etc. that would attract groups (1.).

I would be hammocking wherever in the bush, social distancing (2.) etc. and not stopping in towns.

I will make my mind up on wether I undertake this exercise by tomorrow afternoon, but one thing I don't want is a niggling feeling that I should have stayed home while on the trail or a niggling feeling that I should be on the trail while staying at home.

Four day weekends come once a year - just saying this makes me feel like a social pariah... but as far as I can see this physical exercise and mental down-time is legal.

[neilmny]

https://www.parks.vic.gov.au/get-into-n ... -19-update

[Neo]

Also in NSW, 'No camping...including wild or backcountry camping'

https://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/npws-covid-19

[Baeng72]

https://www.parks.vic.gov.au/get-into-nature/safety-in-nature/covid-19-update

They've shut down the big draw parks. No surprise there.
My local park is still open and only a 100 m away.
Kinglake NP is open too and that's not too far to drive, but I don't think I'll dare because the local plods can use their discretion and say a 20km drive isn't necessary for exercise.


Still don't get why they let people drive to their holiday homes....

[neilmny]

................Still don't get why they let people drive to their holiday homes....

It's a mystery to me Baeng72. I think it is totaly unfair to the locals where ever those holiday homes may be.
So basically we may have people who have continued to work, possibly not isolated for 14 days in the own home and therefore potentially being exposed to several people per day
of unknown infection status, heading off to country areas that have very low numbers of infections. It is furkin idiocy in my opinion.

[Baeng72]

................Still don't get why they let people drive to their holiday homes....

It's a mystery to me Baeng72. I think it is totaly unfair to the locals where ever those holiday homes may be.
So basically we may have people who have continued to work, possibly not isolated for 14 days in the own home and therefore potentially being exposed to several people per day

In less charitable moments I wonder if it's because well-heeled people have holiday/beach houses in locales like the Peninsular or Surf-Coast or some bush haven, and the well-heeled also have access to the corridors of power. But that must be class-envy on my part and it's purely coincidental.

[neilmny]

Not an unreasonable thought either.

[andrewa]

No. No. No. To any questions about going anywhere outside your home for such recreational activities.

Please don’t push the envelope for your own gain, and just cop the fact that we need to stay at home.

I’m a GP. I have to deal with the consequences, and wouldn’t mind avoiding possible death.

Andrew A

[Xplora]

................Still don't get why they let people drive to their holiday homes....

It's a mystery to me Baeng72. I think it is totaly unfair to the locals where ever those holiday homes may be.
So basically we may have people who have continued to work, possibly not isolated for 14 days in the own home and therefore potentially being exposed to several people per day
of unknown infection status, heading off to country areas that have very low numbers of infections. It is furkin idiocy in my opinion.

100% agree. Even the experts are saying people should not be going to smaller or regional areas as the health system in those areas are not equipped to manage the potential spread of the virus. Fortunately our area does not have shops or areas where the general public congregate but we do have many people with holiday houses. The law does not permit us to get together anyway so we can in effect have nothing to do with people who choose to use their holiday house. The problem is when they bring the virus to the place we do our shopping while they are doing their shopping. We have to shop at some stage.

If everyone had the agenda to do whatever was necessary to relieve us of the CV19 burden then there would be no need for laws. So the laws are made and people still want to find ways to circumvent them for their own satisfaction. Selfish people. I get it that you want to exercise in your own way but missing out on a four day weekend once in a while..... suck it up. It is going to rain anyway like most Easters. My mother is 93 and was in hospital for 9 weeks due to pneumonia and other complications. If she gets this then they would only sedate her until she dies. I spent a week with her in Sydney recently to settle her back home and am nearly over my self imposed 2 week isolation which I deemed necessary because of the area I was in. In addition to thinking about how not to catch this virus you should be thinking like you already have it and DO NOT want to spread it to others.

Anyway, a walk around the block is also out of the question for me at the moment. That would require taking a tent.

[Lophophaps]

Xplora, valid points. Your closest towns will be used by people for 50-100 kilometres away, some remote like you. Imagine if these towns lead to a ripple of COVID-19 cases, requiring 1-2 hours return for an ambulance to get the patient, overwhelming local hospitals. The only other alternative I can see is the back of a ute, away from the cabin where germs may be acquired.

You are fortunate to have the national park so close and to know places away from tracks where you can walk and camp. Your around the block comment enchants me. Going around your "block" via roads is perhaps 250 kilometres. You could always say that you were going out for some milk.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-09/ ... s/12134464
"Despite clear evidence Australians are flattening the curve, authorities are warning relaxing social distancing and travelling over the Easter weekend could lead to dire consequences.

"Australia has passed 6,000 total coronavirus cases, with states and territories recording a combined total of 105 new cases on Wednesday."

I'm safe at home. there is food for a month. Internet, books, television, household jobs to do. I work from home. The bush has been part of my life for over 50 years, and I miss it. No matter. There's a famous British World War I poster,
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/ARTV00433/
If someone asks what I did to minimise transmission of COVID-19 I will say that I did nothing except stayed at home.

[stry]

I'm pretty much with Xplora and Lops on this, although I wasn't a few weeks ago.

I also live in a rural area and the number of obviously out of town joy riders, and drivers around here on a lovely day a week or so ago was extraordinary. Week day too. Don't try to tell me that none of them interacted with anyone on their jaunt, spent two two three hours travelling, and didn't get out of the car until they were back home.

Easy to spot those who don't belong, but AFAIK the local plod booked no one, although I think enforcement may have stepped up now.

The criticism of holiday house owners is also justified unless they are genuinely self isolating. Some holiday towns are currently supporting unseasonally large populations, straining and draining local supermarkets, pharmacies, etc. That's additional to the semi organised filth trying to strip regional retail of re saleable items.

I am fortunate in that I have available plenty of tracks, access roads, firetrails etc, within a few minutes of my home, and a couple at the end of my street, but no matter where we live, some sort of calm can be found, even if it's done by getting out when most people aren't.

I usually see only a couple of people, but I also pick a quiet time of day, and/or what most regard as unsuitable weather.

Suck it up.

[Xplora]

Xplora, valid points. Your closest towns will be used by people for 50-100 kilometres away, some remote like you. Imagine if these towns lead to a ripple of COVID-19 cases, requiring 1-2 hours return for an ambulance to get the patient, overwhelming local hospitals. The only other alternative I can see is the back of a ute, away from the cabin where germs may be acquired.

You are fortunate to have the national park so close and to know places away from tracks where you can walk and camp. Your around the block comment enchants me. Going around your "block" via roads is perhaps 250 kilometres. You could always say that you were going out for some milk.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-09/ ... s/12134464
"Despite clear evidence Australians are flattening the curve, authorities are warning relaxing social distancing and travelling over the Easter weekend could lead to dire consequences.

"Australia has passed 6,000 total coronavirus cases, with states and territories recording a combined total of 105 new cases on Wednesday."

I'm safe at home. there is food for a month. Internet, books, television, household jobs to do. I work from home. The bush has been part of my life for over 50 years, and I miss it. No matter. There's a famous British World War I poster,
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/ARTV00433/
If someone asks what I did to minimise transmission of COVID-19 I will say that I did nothing except stayed at home.

Even the closest hospital with ICU could not manage if things get out of hand. We are very fortunate to have the ANP right at our doorstep but still not planning any overnight walks. Fortunately as well I also have my very own trout stream so I can go fishing and still be at home. That may be rubbing it in a bit too far. When you get older you realise things like this are just a speed bump in life so for now it is just day walks from home. I ruptured my achilles a while back and spent a considerable amount of time not doing anything I like. I know of many who had the same injury and were too impatient. Ended up spending twice as long when they re-ruptured. Everything will still be there later but this is different to an injury. Selfish behaviour could in fact take a life. Even a recovery could have long lasting effects. If we can't get stage 3 right then wait until you get to the next stage.

My mother was a child during WW2 but still recalls the sacrifices they had to make to endure it. I think the entire world has become selfish and entitled since then.

I read the 'advice' this morning and it is pretty clear. It even said 'stop looking for loop holes'. I would have to admit it would be an interesting argument to have if I did walk to the shops and back for supplies. That is 100km round trip. Anyway, the point is to stay within the bounds of your own property unless you have a good reason.

[Lamont]

Living in a coastal rural town, the sun comes out lately- the tossers turn up. The Police acted on a report by me within a few hours. I live within a township that is heavily negatively geared. At the moment I am seeing wankers out for a drive. This arvo-I am hoping I don't see any egocentric, self indulgent arschlocs. Geelong Hospital always provides excellent care but has struggled to see people in recent years as the permanent population has expanded so quickly.
There are some people in their tax shelters here now, and have been for a week.

[CraigVIC]

I'm pretty confident I could drive to the Otways spend all day walking off track, see absolutely no one, and get home without stopping. I also see hikers on facebook expressing the same confidence about their walking in the Dandenongs or doing the Cathedral ranges loop. Everyone perceives their own actions in the most positive light leading to all sorts of folly.

I could buy a lot of gear with $1600.

[Baeng72]

I'm pretty confident I could drive to the Otways spend all day walking off track, see absolutely no one, and get home without stopping. I also see hikers on facebook expressing the same confidence about their walking in the Dandenongs or doing the Cathedral ranges loop. Everyone perceives their own actions in the most positive light leading to all sorts of folly.

I could buy a lot of gear with $1600.

Optimisim Bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

[Orbita_Serenitatem]

"Four factors exist that cause a person to be optimistically biased: their desired end state, their cognitive mechanisms, the information they have about themselves versus others, and overall mood."

So I'm doing the Four Factor Challenge - Four nights... four shelters, four stoves, four sleeping pads, four packs... as much as I'd love the four day walk, I'm staying home for the long weekend - to tinker with gear in the backyard. Have a safe one all.