Buller Huts Trail website.

Victoria specific bushwalking discussion.
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Victoria specific bushwalking discussion. Please avoid publishing details of access to sensitive areas with no tracks.

Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby Rileyr » Wed 20 Dec, 2017 4:51 pm

north-north-west wrote:
Rileyr wrote:You bunch sure are a supportive lot aren't ya's


Some of us take things as we find them. Maybe that concept could be a bit more widespread?


Personally, I'd rather not join the mob (of gentlemen I'm sure) and put some one down over little things, and things of little consequence, while hes just having a go.



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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Wed 20 Dec, 2017 8:16 pm

I am entitled to my view on a range of things. If you take it the wrong way then sorry ji, but tough titties!
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby wildwalks » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 1:56 pm

ADMIN POST.

Hi All
I feel this thread has got waaay out of control.

summitexplorer's post was removed after being reported, but I have reinstated it.
Although the post is strong, I think in the context of it is a clear and that it is a fair attempt at community moderation. She was standing up and shouting - wait, look at what is going on here.
I can see how some may find it offensive, my concern and the reason why I reinstated it is, that something need to be said. I wish it was me, I should have said something earlier. But I did not and I am thankful to summitexplorer for standing up and shouting "enough - stop it". It needed to be said.

Darren, I am very sorry you have been treated this way. I love your work, I think it adds great value to the bushwalking community and hope that you can continue producing great resources for bushwalkers.

Like Darren, I have built several bushwalking websites and have been crapped on for all kinds of weird things. It is very hard. It is not a matter of being soft, it is the relentlessness of so-called experts 'just saying the truth'. It is when people focus on very weird details and write off the whole work because of specific words, colours, fonts. It is like people saying this forest sucks because they don't like a rock or leaf.

Let me put this analogy or view point up.
Darren has built a website in order to help promote a walk that he feels is great. He has put in a great deal of effort into building it, in his own time for no particular personal gain. It is his baby that has taken a great deal of work and personal energy.
Then he comes to this forum and sees (what must feel like a) pack of wolves standing around his baby, shouting that his baby is ugly, that the name of his baby is wrong, that he should look up the name of his baby in a dictionary, that he just had the baby for commercial gain and many other opinions about tiny details about his baby.


People seem quick to offer their 'expert' advice before asking questions.
Who would go to the birth of a baby, or a book launch or say these kinds of things to someone's face?
This forum is all about community and relationships. Telling someone their baby is ugly or that you do not like the name they choose for the baby is a sure way to destroy the relationships.

The use of words like track/trail or icon are not a matter of facts -- languages change over time, place and contexts. It is a choice people make.
When you walk past 'the best burger shop in the universe', you know what they mean. You don't go into the burger shop and say 'how do you know it is the best' and why say universe and not just the world. You just enjoy the burger, if it is good then you tell your friends.

Now don't get me wrong. These things can be debated, shared and pointed out. The issue comes when we forget that we are dealing with people and start behaving like a pack of wolves and tearing ideas apart with opinion stated as fact. Been 'right' on a forum does not help anyone, building report with people and having encouraging positive conversations helps build trust and influence. Darren made it clear he is open to ideas and feedback. That does not give permission to just dump crap on it.

Now it is possible I have overreacted here. But before you react please take a breath and I ask you to take 5 mins to this -- go to the first post and re-read this thread. Before you start, think through
    * What do you think is the purpose of Darren's website?
    * why did he build it?
    * who is the intended audience?
    * what works well?
    * who might enjoy this walk?
Then as you read each post, think
    * Does the suggestion in this post actually make any meaningful difference to people planning on doing the walk or to improving bushwalking generally?
    * what effect has the post had on the conversation?
    * what impact might the post have on Darren (or the person being referred to)?
    * what specific expertise does this poster have in this space (what websites have they personally built)?
    * what assumptions have been made by the poster?
    * are there questions the poster could have asked first, before posting?
    * Does this post encourage helpful conversation?
    * does the post build the quality of relationships?
    * would this post be something you would be comfortable saying out loud around a campfire?
    * ..........
once you have done this. Take another breath. Feel free to edit or delete your own posts. Feel free to continue to carry on the conversation.

We have one basic rule on this website -- 'be nice to each other'.
In this case it was not so much rude words, or offensive language that worries me. It is the relentless and seemingly pack behaviour. It is that posters seem less interested in other people and more in being 'right'. There is no point being right if you have end up with no influence because you have destroyed the relationship.

Bushwalk.com is better with greater diversity of ideas and people. With greater diversity we stop pretending the little details define us. Bushwalking is just one pursuit on this great earth. Lets keep in all in perspective.

Thanks for taking the time to read and consider this.

Matt :)
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby bigkev » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 3:11 pm

I've been very disappointed too Matt, in fact I PM'd Darren a few days ago to apologize. I think you've made the right call.

We have a lot of big issues threatening the environment that we all love and the last thing we need to be doing is tearing each other down, especially over semantics or hypotheticals! Darren brings skills and talent to the table that a lot of us haven't got, skills which maybe the outdoor community might be happy to have on their 'side' one day. Having said that I'm not for one minute knocking most of the people that commented, I constantly admiring some of the 'regulars' advocacy for our bush, but lets not become elitist, the more people (all with different skills and weaknesses) that we have the more chance we have of protecting and saving what we've got.

Cheers Kevin
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby north-north-west » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 3:12 pm

summitexplorer wrote:To the self-confessed experts among you, others, like me, are tired of your condescending tone and arrogance so please show some of the respect that you seem to demand, lighten up and be a bit more encouraging. Just a thought. etc etc etc


Decries people apparently discriminating against others. Decries arrogance and condescension. Makes ageist comments.
Says bushwalking is for everyone. Tells some of us to hang up our boots.

Make. Up. Your. Mind.

This is not a personal attack. None of our previous comments have been intended as personal attacks. None of us who made negative remarks got together elsewhere and decided to form a mob. We just happen to agree on certain (admittedly often relatively minor in the grand scheme of things) points. And maybe, just maybe, some at least of what was said of which you so thoroughly disapprove, was meant to be helpful and improve the site. And maybe some of us just digressed and were having a little comfortable 'senior time' discussion about our pet bugbears because this presented an ideal opportunity and, well, Hell, we're just as human as the rest of you.
Not everyone does everything the same way.

I'm kind of grinding my teeth here because your attack on Lophophaps (and one or two others to whom he was referring) is really not warranted. How can you write off someone - who you do not know and whose full experience and contributions to society at large and bushwalking and the environment in particular you do not know - as having done nothing that '...benefits the outdoor community' . . . ? BSAR is nothing? Mentoring and training and leading walkers is nothing? Research and petitions and submissions to governments in order to protect our wild places are nothing? Volunteer work marking and building and clearing tracks is nothing?
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby neilmny » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 3:56 pm

bigkev wrote:I've been very disappointed too Matt, in fact I PM'd Darren a few days ago to apologize. I think you've made the right call.

We have a lot of big issues threatening the environment that we all love and the last thing we need to be doing is tearing each other down, especially over semantics or hypotheticals! Darren brings skills and talent to the table that a lot of us haven't got, skills which maybe the outdoor community might be happy to have on their 'side' one day. Having said that I'm not for one minute knocking most of the people that commented, I constantly admiring some of the 'regulars' advocacy for our bush, but lets not become elitist, the more people (all with different skills and weaknesses) that we have the more chance we have of protecting and saving what we've got.

Cheers Kevin


I agree Kev but basically anyone who wants to suggest anyone over 55 is a narrow minded waste of space can go and get @#@@$@ plain and simple.
Come to think of it anyone who wants to suggest anyone under 55 has no idea and is a waste of space gets the same consideration.
If you disagree at least offer an intelligent argument to the opposing posters, don't just pile sh1t on all and sundry in a temper tantrum.
Doing that is plainly unintelligent and is childish.

I think Darren has done a magnificent job on the web site and if I was in the market for a wizzbang web site like it he'd be on the list of potential suppliers.

Good will and a safe festive season to all, Neil.
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby bigkev » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 3:59 pm

I totally agree Neil, it all goes both ways.
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby Rileyr » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 4:32 pm

I haven't been on the forum long, but I have noticed a distinct social heirarchy of who are the "experienced hikers" and a whole lot of d*** measuring and arrogance.

I have been involved in other forums, namely car forums, where new people getting involved in motorsport (or just new to cars) are mentored, guided and assisted by the more experienced racers/drivers.

Unfortunately here its almost as if the "experienced hikers" like to beat their chest and put people down (as summitexplorer described) instead of offering a helping hand.

I hope like hell this isnt a snapshot of the entire hiking community, because frankly I find it disgraceful - regardless of how "experienced" you might consider yourself.


(I know this has nothing to do with the OP, and am happy if an admin wants it put somewhere else instead of here. Maybe given its own topic infact)





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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby neilmny » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 5:00 pm

Rileyr,
You need to read more of the posts on the overall forum it's not as bad as you think.
There are very few experienced members here that don't offer good guidance and mentoring or take an interest in new ideas.
There are some who lack tact and diplomacy. You also assume that all members have a d*** which is a big mistake.
Just relax mate and read things carefully. The printed word like sms messages doesn't include the face to face feedback that a personal conversation has.
At times I've wanted to fire up about things like yourself but a careful read with an open mind has saved me a lot of embarassment.
You can't change other people's ways but you can control how you behave yourself. As I mentioned earlier @!#@$% anyone who's out to offend others.
I personally find it best if I don't like it, I don't read it. We're here for a good time but not a long time, enjoy the good, @%#%^ the rest. Neil.
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby Rileyr » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 5:08 pm

Yep fair enough Neil, it was a bit of a vent.

Though I still think this thread has been fairly average - up until recently. But posts such as yours and several others now have shown the other side of the community.

I started writing then got distracted and by the time I posted it the conversation had shifted somewhat.

Its good to know the community is full of good ambassadors as well!

PS: I wasnt suggesting that the community doesnt have women within it. I have, however, noticed that some of the behaviour I mentioned has been mostly by members with male names
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 7:16 pm

I think the ADMIN . in his post meant to type 'rapport' rather than 'report'.
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Thu 21 Dec, 2017 11:08 pm

Walked this BHT. Found it a ready made packaged challenge like most 'walks' offered in bushwalking guide books.
Pros- inspired me to plan an extended walk beyond 3 days besides the AAWT, takes in some of my fav walking/peaks/views- Bluff to Mt Spec, provided further inspiration for extended walk ideas (linking walks etc), discovered areas and views wouldn't have usually targeted (King gut to Stirling)
Cons- fair amount of road walking, notes could represent walk more accurately, gpx file appears to have been created from a map, not from walking the route, doesn't feel like author has experienced said route.

Still enjoyed the circuit and would recommend at least one lap- I guess I just like to wander in the hills.
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby Xplora » Fri 22 Dec, 2017 4:56 am

I find myself wishing I had not posted anything on this thread. I have read through my posts as Matt suggested and read them again. I normally would not care what others thought of me but now have found myself a little conflicted. My original post was in response to the OP's question and subsequent with the knowledge Darren was involved in the discussion. Apart from a few matters which were to help him tidy up the site I don't see anything I have written to be offensive or at least nothing was intended to give offense. The written word can be read somewhat harder or unintended meanings can be read into the words. As Neil has pointed out, it lacks the personal touch. I stated my personal opinion that this was not an iconic walk and this is not having a go at the name of Darren's baby. Maybe it will be in time but that is for those who have done it to judge. For now it is more like giving your baby a title it has not earned or deserved. Park Vic are using the same word to describe walks which are also not iconic but it seems OK to speak up against those offerings. Darren's offering is in a public arena and it can be judged by the public but it should be done constructively on this forum at least. It is clear he brings considerable marketing and web design skills to the table. It reads very much as a tourist promotion brochure and not like a regular guide book or track note. That could inspire a range of people. If anyone feels I have been too harsh with my comment then I am more than happy to take your comments on board directly via a PM. I have already apologised to Darren for any unintended offensive but offer it again.
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby bigwallclimber » Fri 22 Dec, 2017 6:30 am

HI Everyone,

Note: This post is not hiking related but relates to this thread. I was a part of rockclimbing forum which was focused on bigwall climbs around the world, a particular post was made in relation to a route that connected the two routes together. Now this route was what some believed to be arbitrary and undeed due to what they perceived as a someone trying to get their name in a guidebook. What those in the forum failed to realise was that the route that was onsighted and used 00 copperheads and was what some thought to be an amazing feat given the rock structure and the lack of real protection (upto 30m of copperheads and no gear). Now leading 30m on 00 copperheads takes some mental aptitude and focus to not fall.

The person who posted the route was berated, made to feel that the work they had done to link the two routes (4 days of hard climbing) was not in tune with what the climbing community wanted. The path this post took whats somewhat akin to what occurred on that forum and the person ultimately did not want the route in an updated guide when it rightly should have been, left the forum and stopped providing updated and more arduous routes for the climbing community in the USA. Funnily enough the route that was onsighted has only ever seen two repeats and sits fairly in the "Holy *&%$#! that is super hard and takes some guts and DO NOT Fall category)

I was an observer on this post and sat back and did not type much and hoped the post would not follow a similar path, I love the information in this forum, it gives me a great resource to plan my adventures, gives me motivation and gets me outdoors and living the one life I have to the fullest. To this date I still have not put up a new bigwall route, will not add value to the bigwall climbing community and will only cimb things that I enjoy.

The original post I made with the information and route beta was deleted at my request because I do not want someone to climb my marvelous piece of rock and I only want to enjoy it with close friends.

Rock On
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby wildwalks » Fri 22 Dec, 2017 8:40 am

Xplora wrote:....I have read through my posts as Matt suggested and read them again. .....If anyone feels I have been too harsh with my comment then I am more than happy to take your comments on board directly via a PM. I have already apologised to Darren for any unintended offensive but offer it again.

Thanks Xplora :)
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby Mark F » Fri 22 Dec, 2017 9:20 am

I had a quick look at the site and think it is pretty good. A couple of issues that have raised concerns especially in light of the heavily opposed Alpine Crossing plans are the use of the word "iconic" and the inference that guided tours may become available. Bit like waving a red rag at a bull even if unintentional.
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby slparker » Fri 22 Dec, 2017 10:42 am

People have been following guides and guidebooks for decades upon decades and many of the guidebooks lauded on this site have opened up bush to 'sheep' for decades. I don’t see Bil Wilkinson and John Chapman being castigated for errors in their texts nor maligned for the people that they have brought into wilderness areas, at personal financial gain.

Some bloke produces a site doing the same thing, if a little naive and amateurish, and he gets pounced upon as if he was planning to bulldoze his own tracks. Mind you, it is the internet it doesn’t pay to be over-sensitive.

I consider that most comments come from a place of protecting historical and wilderness values but, as I have said before, you cannot have your cake and eat it. You can’t boast of wilderness expertise without acknowledging your own contribution to the overuse of the wilderness. Or is just other people who are the 'sheep'?
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Re: Buller Huts Trail website.

Postby Xplora » Sat 23 Dec, 2017 9:17 am

summitexplorer wrote: Am I not entitled to my opinion as so many others seem to be?


It has taken me some time to reflect on what you have said before responding. One thing we all share is an opinion. It may not be the same but we all have one and I believe all have a right to share it. I am glad your post was reinstated but in light of what Matt has suggested do you still feel it is worthy? Aren't you doing the same thing you have berated myself and others for? Yes, some may consider me old but I am not a senior. Others here who have commented are younger than 55. It seems to me the majority of negative comments are related to the term iconic. That is an opinion, of which those who share it are entitled to have, but it should be expressed in a respectful way. By and large that was done. The discussion was by many standards and in general quite civil with good dialogue from Darren and others. My comments were balanced and offered praise and support for Darren's work suggesting that although it was not for me, it could appeal to others.
Lops is away for some time doing what he likes best, walking in the bush, this time in Tassie so he has probably not read your comments but in support of what he has written and in particular the section singled out by you, his comments (and others from the old farts club) display a maturity and experience which one day I hope you can reflect upon and transfer to the younguns as Lops has done over many years. He was simply pointing out to Darren we were not making this judgement without due consideration and it was based on some extensive experience. I feel your comments were a complete over reaction to what had been said. Others may disagree with me and I have no problem if they express that.
I don't really see what took place as a mob attacking one person. Respectful questions were asked and Darren answered them. Concerns were raised and Darren alleviated them. Some nit picking occurred but I doubt it was intended as a pedantic rant and this is an internet forum. Possibly Darren was a little too sensitive because his project had received some negative input and likely some here were a little less sensitive to that fact but sometimes you need a teaspoon of cement in our porridge. There was no suggestion Darren could not legitimately make some money out of this at a later stage but few would want it to be done at the expense of the wild areas. I never read that was Darren's intention but consider others could jump on its back with some development ideas. I also see nothing wrong with people making money as long as they do it and leave no trace in the bush. I have done it myself.
I have not yet seen any of your comments which could be considered constructive but you are only new here and I hope you have more to contribute over the years but you have also commented and said some scathing things hiding behind your screen name if that matters at all. It seemed so to you. There is nothing I have said in any comment on any thread on this forum that I would not have said direct to the person face to face. If you stick around long enough or take the time to read other posts from those you have been critical of you may then be able to come back to this thread and re-read the posts with a softer heart.
If you feel you want to delete your post then I would in turn delete this one.
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