Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Victoria specific bushwalking discussion.
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Victoria specific bushwalking discussion. Please avoid publishing details of access to sensitive areas with no tracks.

Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Xplora » Fri 13 Nov, 2015 8:08 am

north-north-west wrote: It's really just another version of the Lib's attempt to sell off development leases within the NPs to make a quick buck and provide fancy-pants holiday homes for their toffee-nosed mates. [/rant]


Only now its the other lot in charge of it. The ones who broke the state in the first place.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby north-north-west » Fri 13 Nov, 2015 9:33 am

I'm not getting into a political argument. It's not acceptable no matter who is behind it.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Fri 13 Nov, 2015 12:48 pm

NNW and Xplora , the VNPA have all of your arguments and points already added to their " Hands Off The National parks" modus operandi in this matter. I agree with you both and am glad there is a not for profit lobby group such as the VNPA who see and value biodiversity and natural beauty in the National Parks rather than see dollars signs in places that have not yet been turned into a car park at MacDonald's.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby sambar358 » Sat 14 Nov, 2015 4:02 pm

To me......this "consultative process" smacks of just a token gesture to the masses to have some sort of "input" when the decision has already been made to go-ahead by the backroom boys.....both in government and the private enterprise interests. I would think that individual & interest group submissions opposing the proposal which are lodged by the due date may have more of an impact than attending a meeting some days after the close of preliminary consultation. This whole deal seems to be a bit rushed to me with the submission timings and bleating that this is only a "concept" at this stage......I suspect that there's been a fair bit going on behind the scenes that groups likely opposed to this proposal are unaware of and the "concept" may be a lot further advanced than they are letting-on.

I agree with all the sentements expressed already.....private enterprise using a public resource to make money for themselves and their shareholders is not what I want to see in the Alpine National Park. The temptation will be too great to create a situation where "putting boots thru the walk" to justify their expenses will over-rule the need to consider the impact of this activity on what is a sensitive alpine environment. These sorts of walks need to be challenging and give those participating a real remote alpine experience whilst minimising the impact on the surroundings. Building comfortable huts along the route, "improving" the track, encouraging large-scale participation to rake-in the $$$$ via having frequent organised group walks while likely also charging a serious dollar for non-booked-in individuals to walk the route will not only de-value the remoteness and challeging nature of the Alpine Crossing but it will be a visual scar on the landscape that will be a blight on all who have let this happen. It's bad-enough with the government of the day giving the Alpine Resorts Commission the green light to "develop" the landscape in the ski resorts within the ANP in the name of "progress"........let's not let them also get their hands on some of the remote icon areas of the Park so they can turn them into cash-cows outside the snow season as well. Cheers

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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby sim1oz » Sun 15 Nov, 2015 12:29 am

@s358, I hope you are putting that into a submission. You've expressed my concerns so eloquently.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby sambar358 » Sun 15 Nov, 2015 9:50 am

Yep Sim1oz.....already done a submission on this to the contact in the OP and completed the Survey Monkey thingo as well via that link also. It was a bit of a fizzer though I thought and very "pro the project" with the question wording but I think I got my message across which essentially was : "If it ain't broke.....then don't fix it !"

It doesn't take long to knock-up a submission if you're passionate about the subject.....just let 'em what you think about it and why, keep it polite and don't waffle-on too much. Unfortunately though going by my past experiences making submissions and commenting on Draft Management Plans and the like the "process" of allowing input from interested user groups can largely be a window-dressing exercise as the format requires "transparency" and more often than not what's proposed in the Draft is what you get in the final document and interest group input is largely ignored. Hopefully that's not the case here. And I encourage anyone interested in this to spend half an hour and put-in a written submission airing their thoughts on it.......don't leave it to the other bloke once again.....as he's expecting you to do it ! Cheers

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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Mon 23 Nov, 2015 6:17 pm

http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/explore/parks ... aster-plan

The meeting set for this Wed. in the city , an exercise in pretending to care what the public might think about this master plan/ master sham has been cancelled. I was all ready to attend and all .
I wonder why they have called it off.





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Briefing Cancellation













"We are sorry to advise that due to unforseen circumstances the Melbourne briefing scheduled for Wednesday 25 November has been cancelled.

While there may be a briefing in the future, we encourage you access the documentation online and provide feedback as soon as possible.

Please email your comments to the project team at: FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au

The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing preliminary concept can be accessed via the following link:
http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/explore/parks ... aster-plan

We apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused."
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Mon 23 Nov, 2015 6:23 pm

Here is what I have typed and e mailed and sent as my response to this plan.
"Dear Sir /Madam,
I am concerned about the planned developments which are aimed
at realigning and developing the walking trail/s from Falls
Creek to Mt. Hotham.
The is no economic or environmental justification for this plan.
This is a national park and the impetus for this master plan
seems to be coming from the Ski resorts at Falls Creek and
Mt Hotham which seek to make more money than they already do
by trying to extend their capacity to generate green season
revenue outside of their boundaries through this scheme.

The main points that I wish to make are :
By developing what is a wild and challenging place to hike
you run the risk of killing the goose that lays the golden egg.
What makes the Alpine N.P. special is that one encounters
nature on nature's terms not a modified environment.

People who ordinarily don't hike in such mountainous terrain
much would struggle with ascending or descending the
Diamantina spur. It is one of the toughest places to hike in
the area. If you put in steps, ladders and handrails in the way
the Pinnacles /wonderland walk in the Grampians N.P. have
been installed/modified, then that would still not remove the
need for elite fitness to complete this segment of the
planned realignment of the walking trail.

Secondly installing such infrastructure would be expensive
and would be a blight on the landscape. It would be making the
Alpine N.P. into some kind of "Lego land", full of built man
made structures , not a wilderness that it is supposed to be.
Thirdly in winter much of such infrastructure would be buried
in snow so brave and hardy winter snow shoes, ice axe and
crampon /ski touring based trekkers would not even see it if
the snow season is a good one.

The idea of putting a hut on top of High Knob is insane.
There are plenty of mountain huts in the region. They exist
for survival and shelter not as luxury glamour camping
huts. There is no water on top of High Knob. You'd have to
install a rain water tank with the hut and a long drop pit
loo with a rain water tank from that structure too. All of a
sudden you'd have two more buildings in what is supposed to be a
place set aside for protecting fauna and flora bio diversity .
Situated at 1800 M the weather up there is unpredictable at best.
Newcomers to such an environment could put themselves in
harm's way if they don't know how to read or respect the
mountain weather and terrain.

There is no road up there so such a hut would have to be
dropped in by helicopter in a pre fabricated style of assembly.

I mean putting a 4WD track across the Razorback from the
Diamantina hut would be pure vandalism of a beautiful and wild
place. Nobody would be pleased with that.
If these said tracks were to be upgraded for people who are
unaccustomed to walking in the high country then mountain
bikers would take to them too . Then you'd have people on
bicycles speeding along what is a walking track mowing down
bushwalkers. It is already sounding like a highway with the
extra hut , mountain bikers, glamour campers etc.

This would kill the goose that lays the golden egg. What makes
it special will be lost .
The idea of build it and they will come is also misguided.

There is not enough demand to justify such an expensive project.

Major walking trails in New Zealand and Tasmania have had some
kind of developments because the volume and number of walkers
was already such that something had to be done in order to
manage the crowds of trekkers who were and are already
flocking to such hiking routes.
At present and even if it was marketed hard to all and
sundry the demand would still not be there. The planned route
is along a scenic, spectacular and topographically rugged
and beautiful area.
The spur up/ down past Weston's hut and the Diamantina spur
are much tougher than anything most hikers face when they
just go for a wander at Wilson's Prom. N.P or the Grampians
N.P.


Once such a route is built and infrastructure is put into
place then private interests who have put some investment into
the master plan will want a return in dollars for their
efforts in getting this all to come to fruition.
Then what happens to the route if you don't want to pay ,
rather just bush camp along the way?
The whole route re alignment and the subsequent use of it by
ordinary nature lover s and trekkers could eventually be
subject to a hefty booking fee in order to recoup money
spent on what was not ever needed.
Price increases keep people away .Look at Tidal River for proof.

It seems like privatization by incremental steps is to be
expected. This is not what National parks are for. People go to
such wild and untamed places to escape the world of share
holders demanding dividends and insane man made clutter , visual
pollution and built structures.

If cashed up glamour hikers and such people want to quickly
return to Falls Creek after completing such a hiking route
with all of the planned developments then will a helipad be
built too? Then helicopters will be whizzing by , further
eroding the serenity.


I shall oppose this master plan for the Falls to Hotham
walking trail realignment and development.
Many others will . You are all making a big mistake.
Yours Sincerely
Taariq Hassan
VNPA hike leader."
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby andrewp » Mon 23 Nov, 2015 6:29 pm

paidal_chalne_vala wrote:We are sorry to advise that due to unforseen circumstances the Melbourne briefing scheduled for Wednesday 25 November has been cancelled

I'm guessing the unforeseen circumstances are that there are too many parties not in favour of their concept. We all know that the feedback is just window dressing and they will do what they want regardless. Sounds like they won't be organising a replacement meeting. I was also all set to go and will be somewhat put out by the cancellation.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 23 Nov, 2015 7:11 pm

andrewp wrote:I'm guessing the unforeseen circumstances are that there are too many parties not in favour of their concept. We all know that the feedback is just window dressing and they will do what they want regardless. Sounds like they won't be organising a replacement meeting. I was also all set to go and will be somewhat put out by the cancellation.


That was my immediate take as well. My submission is as follows. In a few places I used some rather good forms of words from posts above.

1 Are you familiar with the Falls Creek and Mount Hotham Region?
Yes.

2 Are you comfortable with the proposed route alignment for the Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing?
No.

3 What are the proposed Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing alignments strengths?
I can see no strengths.

4 What are the proposed Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing alignments weaknesses?
The main weaknesses in the proposal are that it lacks economic justification, it’s not sustainable, it would diminish the quality of the places on the route, and it's dangerous. Also, the proponents have scant knowledge of the walk area, which greatly limits their ability to make meaningful plans. I will address each in turn. Most are linked to some degree.

Economic justification
Regardless of visitor numbers increasing as seems to be envisaged by the crossing proponents, tracks and huts will require many millions of dollars to establish and maintain. There is no way that visitors or private enterprise will be able to fund the maintenance costs. Without significant works prior to commencement, steeper and/or more sensitive sections will quickly deteriorate. This especially applies to marshy areas.

Parks Victoria is stretched very thin. Will the government be providing the $1-3 million needed to establish infrastructure, and a similar amount each year for administration and to maintain infrastructure? If so, why has the government not provided such funding to Parks Victoria now? A far better use of funding is to maintain existing infrastructure. When this is done to a suitable standard then consideration should be given to expansion, which should be done gradually.

Prior to writing this submission I asked for details of the economic case. None was provided, and it may be that there is no economic case, or maybe is will not stand up to scrutiny. I'm unaware of a sound economic case that supports the proposal. If such a case exists it needs to be made known as a matter of urgency so that it can be scrutinised during the consultation process. If there is an economic basis I'd be most grateful if it could be sent to me.

Not sustainable
Wood is already in short supply at Federation Hut, Tawonga Huts, Cope Hut and other places. An influx of visitors not versed in conservation values will place stress on all these places. Human waste and litter are similar problems, with a very real risk of water sources being polluted with e. coli and Giardia. If this happens then downstream towns will be in jeopardy. Above I mentioned tracks in steeper and/or more sensitive sections that will quickly deteriorate. Works are needed prior to the track opening to bring these sections to a suitable standard. To do otherwise is in breach of policy surrounding these places.

Diminish the quality
Some camp sites such as at Federation Hut are quite limited and are full on many weekends. If more people visit then they will be forced to camp at more exposed places, which will put them at risk in adverse weather. This seems to be the aim.

One major current feature of the walks near here is solitude. If the numbers increase as seems to be envisaged then this aspect will be gone. The tracks and campsites will be loved to death.

The sort of shelters that seem to be planned are totally inappropriate for the region. Provision of shelters can kill in that people leave tents behind or have inadequate tents, and rely nearly fully on huts. If a hut is not reached in adverse weather or inability to continue then there may be a death. This has happened not far from the proposed route.

Dangerous
Many other long-distance tracks have relatively easy terrain. For example, apart from the start the Overland Track in Tasmania is more or less flat. The Larapinta Track in the Northern Territory is similar. By contrast, the proposed route has a significant descent and ascent. Putting people with less experience and fitness on the proposed crossing places them at risk.

Scant knowledge of the walk area
It has been shown beyond any doubt that the people behind the idea of the Hotham-Falls Creek route have no idea what they are doing. The brochure is riddled with errors of fact, spelling and design. The camping platforms are preposterous. How can one ensure that a booked platform will be available? What remedies are available should a booked platform be unavailable due to someone else turning up and camping on it? The siting of the Cope Hut platforms defies belief. Nice view, acceptable in good weather, but horribly exposed in bad weather. Without exception, every experienced bushwalker who commented on these platforms has condemned them.

I twice attempted to provide feedback to the Hotham-Falls brochure but received no reply. If a simple thing like feedback cannot be managed, what hope more complicated issues? Similar factual, spelling and grammar errors are in the preliminary Falls Hotham master plan. The Falls Hotham poster has far too many basic errors, and the design is dreadful. It beggars belief that planners cannot determine facts and write properly.

5 Does the proposed Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing route miss any of the unique landscape features/offers that could potentially enhance the experience?
The idea is not to cover all the features in one walk. Can't be done. The idea is to give a good selection of features so that people will return to see the features that they did not see on their first trip. This point is basic for experienced walkers. Question five shows that the planners are totally unaware of the way that walks are conducted. It appears probable that Parks Victoria, Tourism North East (sic) or Mc Gregor and Coxall have not walked the proposed route specifically to see the route. I would be most interested to learn if this is so.

6 What audience segments do you believe the Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing should marketed towards?
None. The market – for want of a better term – for walks is or should be those that are self-sufficient in remote and rugged regions and can find such places themselves. Enticing people with lesser experience, fitness and gear is ill-advised as such people will be placed in danger. No amount of infrastructure, technology or personal attribute can replace experience to adequately or at all manage adverse circumstances such as bad weather, injury, bushfire or being lost. On many occasions I have seen tourists venturing far beyond where they should at Hotham and Falls Creek with minimal or no gear. They were only saved by the grace of good weather. Tourists have died due to inappropriate encouragement, with at least one coroner critical of park management. If there's a fatality due to excessive promotion of a potentially dangerous area then it will not be an accident: the result is foreseeable. Those responsible will be held to account. Placing people in potential danger seems to be the policy of the proponents, and if so is strongly condemned.

7 What visitor services/facilities should be offered to make the Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing attractive to both local and international markets?
No more than are available at present. People come to see nature, not destroy it and battle hordes. The best use of funds is to make tracks better in the places where they are wearing out, and to provide accurate information about the walks, including suitable warnings. So far I have seen no evidence that funds are available. Apart from that, facilities are quite adequate at present. Falls Creek has a visitor centre (two counting Windy Corner), there's a number of huts in the region, tracks are acceptable (if needing more work in many places), and Hotham also has a visitor centre. NSW and Tasmania have removed infrastructure to make wild areas remain that way. Victoria should not be doing more than having tracks that are of an acceptable standard. The government will not even do this!

8 Are there any further comments you would like to submit on the proposed Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing Master Plan?
The idea is fundamentally flawed and should not proceed. It is devoid of economic credentials and has a dismal return on investment. There is no rational basis for the plan. Proponents do not have the requisite skills, experience or judgement to plan or manage such a concept.

The bushwalking culture in Victoria is different to those of other places. For example, in Tasmania, infrastructure such as track works, public huts and tent platforms are to protect the environment, not to entice more people to make money. Profit is a secondary matter that will ensue in due course provided the environment is maintained. Many of not most conservationists and experienced bushwalkers oppose any expansion of private use in national parks.

Private construction should be kept at the edges, just outside the national park. Allowing private construction within a national park so private enterprise can make profit is a matter of great concern. There is also the distinct possibility that limits users such as bushwalkers and sightseer to enjoy those areas; private investors will suggest a degree of exclusivity in order to help marketing their “product”.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Mon 23 Nov, 2015 10:46 pm

I have just filled in the survey again , with more detail. I was all fired up to share my thoughts in public as visible in my above letter but no, the meeting 's cancelled and we can all go jump. Well It will take a death by some newbie glamper from either a heart attack , a fall or exposure to allow us to say we told you so.
I must say enjoy the area now while it is relatively unspoiled. I can perceive the whole thing is a done deal & we just can talk to the hand.

Even if the whole thing does get built it won't see that much traffic in winter apart from slightly crazy snow shoe trekkers such as me.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Xplora » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 4:55 am

If they do this then we might as well let the cattle back up there and if it follows the lines of the GOW then it will cost you dearly and be a one direction walk. Do they do that to avoid head on collisions that could be fatal or does the look of someone walking toward you spoil the natural beauty of the area? It is not a done deal yet and we need to keep up the pressure. Find someone sympathetic in the opposition. Not sure if the Feds can help but they got involved with the cattle debate. Contact the editor of Wild magazine and see what kind of story can be run. I am wondering why the VNPA wants to keep things quiet and why it could backfire. They should be a strong voice and one the governments take note of. All the logic and commonsense in the world coming from one voice will do nothing to change the mind of those in control so the more who speak out the more they will listen. I think Taariq is right to say this plan is incremental. The frog is in the pot of cold water and the burner has been turned on. Privatization by stealth is another way to look at it.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby sambar358 » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 6:34 am

Yep....got one of those "briefing cancelled" notifications as well yesterday. Methinks that Parks have misjudged level of acceptance of this proposal and I suspect that they thought everyone would think that this was a wonderful concept and that all users would give it the thumbs-up. If this goes ahead it'll be the thin end of the wedge and expect more of the same in other now-pristine areas in the mountains and a roll-out of the "user pays" concept of public land usage.

When this now-cancelled meeting was being touted as a "briefing" rather than an "open forum" it raised a red flag with me......in briefings you are "told" what's going to happen by those in charge rather than the attendees raising issues that those up-the-front then attempt to address to everyones satisfaction. I think that it'd be a good move for those who haven't as yet made their feelings felt on this via the on-line survey or doing a personal submission to do so before the deadline. There's plenty of excellent points raised in this thread already that are good starters and like all situations where "numbers count" the more individuals who make the effort to let their feelings be known the more those driving these sorts of things will sit up and take notice. However once this project gets the green light and works start then it's too late......the time to stop it is NOW ! Cheers

s358
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby stry » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 7:24 am

Thanks for the prod folks. Done the survey.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 7:28 am

Well if the proposed huts do go ahead it is possible they will get hit by lightning and burn down
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby andrewp » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 7:41 am

I think written submissions will carry more weight than the online survey. The survey is anonymous.

I urge anyone who has concerns to make a submission. It doesn't take long. There are plenty of ideas here.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 8:13 am

sambar358 wrote:Yep....got one of those "briefing cancelled" notifications as well yesterday. Methinks that Parks have misjudged level of acceptance of this proposal and I suspect that they thought everyone would think that this was a wonderful concept and that all users would give it the thumbs-up. If this goes ahead it'll be the thin end of the wedge and expect more of the same in other now-pristine areas in the mountains and a roll-out of the "user pays" concept of public land usage.


Thin end of the wedge, precisely. There's another name - the salami technique. This is where you have smaller bite-sized jobs rather than a bigger task that seems daunting. Giovernments use this all the time. "It's only a small area, just a small incurseion, no more." and then later the small start is sued as a toehold for more and more. If anyone says that a small area has limited impact, how about fences across the Hume Freway at 20 kilometre intervals. That's about 0.0005%, so limited impact, right?

sambar358 wrote:When this now-cancelled meeting was being touted as a "briefing" rather than an "open forum" it raised a red flag with me......in briefings you are "told" what's going to happen by those in charge rather than the attendees raising issues that those up-the-front then attempt to address to everyones satisfaction.


Good point. My take - which I now think is mistaken - was that it was a forum. If it's just a one way flow of information it can be online.


sambar358 wrote:I think that it'd be a good move for those who haven't as yet made their feelings felt on this via the on-line survey or doing a personal submission to do so before the deadline. There's plenty of excellent points raised in this thread already that are good starters and like all situations where "numbers count" the more individuals who make the effort to let their feelings be known the more those driving these sorts of things will sit up and take notice. However once this project gets the green light and works start then it's too late......the time to stop it is NOW !


Agreed, and that is why I send a nicely formatted MS Word document. There was an acknowledgement from
Alpsplan <Alpsplan@parks.vic.gov.au> as follows:
Thank you for your submission on the Greater Alpine National Parks Draft Management Plan. All comments will be carefully considered in preparing the final Management Plan.

Please note that the names of groups and individuals submitting comments will be published in the final plan unless comments are marked ‘CONFIDENTIAL’ when submitted. After publication of the approved plan, copies of all submissions received will be made available for public inspection unless marked ‘CONFIDENTIAL’.

Thank you for taking the time to provide feedback on the management of these important parks and reserves.

*** ends

I thought my submission was about Falls-Hotham. No matter, my words are now on the record. I await the economic raeasoning with interest
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby sambar358 » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 9:42 am

Interesting Lophophaps that you received an acknowledgement of your Falls/Hotham submission via Alpsplan@parks.vic.gov.au and that it was refered to as a submission on the GANP Draft Management Plan. Two totally different plans I would have thought. I sent mine here : FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au 10 days ago via a Word Doc attached to an email and I've received no notification at all that it's got to where it was supposed to.

Maybe you should re-send yours to : FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au just in case the original ended-up where it was not supposed to go and is "conveniently ignored." Cheers

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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 10:15 am

sambar358 wrote:Interesting Lophophaps that you received an acknowledgement of your Falls/Hotham submission via Alpsplan@parks.vic.gov.au and that it was refered to as a submission on the GANP Draft Management Plan. Two totally different plans I would have thought. I sent mine here : FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au 10 days ago via a Word Doc attached to an email and I've received no notification at all that it's got to where it was supposed to.

Maybe you should re-send yours to : FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au just in case the original ended-up where it was not supposed to go and is "conveniently ignored." s358


Sambar358, I also thought it was interesting. My submission went to FHAC@parks.vic.gov.au. If anything yours might be the one that can be ignored by PV. The lack of an acknowledgement to you concerns me. What do you think about sending the submission again, mentioning the earlier email? ("On 14.11.15 at (time) I sent a submission to~ no acknowledgement so I'm sending it again). Send this to both PV email addresses, and have a blind cc to you. This blind cc will evidence delivery as provided in the Electronic Transactions (Victoria) Act 2000, section 13. (ETVA is more subtle than that, but a cc or bcc hammers the point - if you get your own email then it must have arrived at the intended place unless it bounces.) The bcc will not alert PV that a cc exists. I use this a lot, wonderful legislation.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby sambar358 » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 11:40 am

My thoughts exactly Lophophaps.......already re-sent mine to FHAC and Alpsplan as well so we'll see what happens I guess.......good suggestion on the blind cc as well. Cover all bases ! Cheers

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Last edited by sambar358 on Tue 24 Nov, 2015 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 4:06 pm

I have also sent my letter to
Alpsplan@parks.vic.gov.au
I will not back off on this issue!
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 11:27 am

I've just been informed that the briefing was cancelled largely because a key person is ill. This advice was not from Parks Victoria. I wonder why PV did not give the reason for the cancellation, and if they are aware of darker reasons that have been advanced. It may be that the key person is the one that replies to email submissions.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 7:14 pm

Hi
Is there a snail mail address we can bombard? I think it is too easy for the powers that be to hit the delete button with e mails, esp. in a bureaucracy.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 7:22 pm

paidal_chalne_vala wrote:Is there a snail mail address we can bombard? I think it is too easy for the powers that be to hit the delete button with e mails, esp. in a bureaucracy.


If the submission has been acknowledged then it cannot be deleted. Trouble is they have three emails, one of which did not work. The preliminary concept PDF has an address, but the graphics are so poor that it's quite hard to find and read.
Cameron Bergmeier
Parks Victoria
10/535 Bourke Street
Melbourne Vic 3000
This is on the south side of Bourke Street, west side of William Street.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby vicrev » Wed 25 Nov, 2015 8:54 pm

Mmm...I think I have mentioned many times before,snail mail they have to open,(could be a cheque) & has to be recorded,standard procedure,emails mean buggar all & are usually not responded to,same as telephone calls.......pollies have a scale..one tel call equals 5 people concerned...one email 10 people.....one letter 30 people are concerned...something like that........also a registered letter is more effective........
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 26 Nov, 2015 2:09 am

Some comments about lobbying.

Petitions are interesting but usually don't achieve much unless the numbers are huge. It's too easy to put your name on a petition. Pro forma responses where the sender fills in a form or simply repeats the line of the peak lobby group are not much use either. Those of you with long memories will recall the Mt Stirling proposal, a new downhill village. There were a lot of pro formas submitted to the enquiry for the village, many of which were dated on a Saturday in the ski season. I visualised downhill skiers at nearby Mt Buller in their lodges filling out the forms. The pro formas did not count much.

Then there are individual responses that go into some detail. These may (probably do) follow the peak body line, but are in the writer's words. This sort of response has clout as they are hopefully well thought out and stand up to scrutiny. Importantly, the writer cares enough about the issue to write in detail. I suspect that these sort of responses will be included in a tally of for and against, and made known to the minister.

Some of these responses are based on hard facts such as envionment, demographics and economics, and cannot easily be refuted. Some are by highly qualified people or peak bodies with electoral clout - not easily dismissed. Some are very passionate. I can still recall the passion in one Mt Stirling submission. A girl maybe 12 years old wrote by hand about how she loved Mt Stirling and did not want to see it made into a downhill resort. To me that submission was worth all the pro formas and petitions put together. I read them all.

If there are a lot of these sort of responses then the political effect will become significant. The minister will start to think about electorate backlash, what commentators will say, how he or she will be viewed. This is why I keep hammering economics. No minister likes to be seen as an economic fool. Also, a longer reply means that the writer may well make the issue public. In any case, the submissions will be public.

The next aspect is time. It's not too hard to get a surge of responses. Hot issue, people are concerned, and they write. But if there's responses from a widely geographically dispersed number of people that continues over time then the bean counters take more notice. The issue resonates with the electorate and is important. If the responses come from seats that are held by the government by a small margin, so much the better for the lobbyists.

So give PV a chance to digest the information, and then write to the minister or your state MP. The minister is The Hon. Lisa Neville MP, Minister for Environment, Climate Change and Water
Level 17, 8 Nicholson Street, East Melbourne, VIC 3002
Phone (03) 9637 9654
email lisa.neville@parliament.vic.gov.au
Twitter http://www.twitter.com/@LisanevilleMP

You can also contact the opposition.
Mr Brad Battin MP, Shadow Minister for Environment
brad.battin@parliament.vic.gov.au
http://bradbattin.com.au/contact-brad/
http://www.bradbattin.com.au
http://www.facebook.com/BradBattinMP
Give him enough information and he will do something. He's in the Liberal party, so dollars are persuasive. Show that the Falls-Hotham proposal lacks a solid economic basis.

The process has just begin. If you feel enough about the matter then this is just the first step. So what's stopping you?
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Drew » Thu 26 Nov, 2015 4:28 pm

Surveys done and email sent.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Thu 26 Nov, 2015 5:38 pm

I am going to write via snail mail and send it by reg. post. Fooey on these people!. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 26 Nov, 2015 7:15 pm

The closing date for submissions was last Monday. VNPA is advocating a softly, softly approach, so being factual rather than heavy is suggested. Certainly hit then very hard with environmental and economic facts, but that's about all. Shine a bright light of facts and logic on the rather foolish plans that seem to be driven more by ideology and perhaps attempting to keep up with the OLT et al. Show that the proposal simply will not stand up to scrutiny. Tassie is going down the same track, with development in trackless wilderness. Silly there, silly for the Falls-Hotham lunacy.

I wonder how many people there are in PV with strong conservation views that are forced to support the government line.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby vicrev » Thu 26 Nov, 2015 8:28 pm

Maybe this is what the majority of people want ?...........the monthly RACV magazine has a feature article on comfort camping,flush toilets,bath,luxury made up beds,coffee machines,gourmet restaurants, all on site & some next to heritage areas,money is really talking here..........worth a look....
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