Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli access

Tasmania specific bushwalking discussion.
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Tasmania specific bushwalking discussion. Please avoid publishing details of access to sensitive areas with no tracks.

Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 18 Apr, 2020 3:26 pm

Taswegian, well said. When I started writing submissions about this sort of thing my focus was that which I saw to be obvious - nature. Over time this is still very obvious to me, but now my focus emphasises economics. To appreciate the nature aspect the reader must have a similar mindset, and not many people in government have this, especially when the minister says not to give nature much weight.

So I include hard figures, good estimates, return on equity, discounted cashflow and the like. If possible I include how voters feel. This can be useful in marginal electorates. These will be much more easily understood by bean counters than esoteric things like the value of wilderness or a local park.

Giving too much power to a minister with limited review is a breach of democracy, and this may also me a matter for inclusion in submissions.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby johnrs » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 1:37 pm

And here is the ministerial response.
No problems here.
I guess this is why there was more than 1000 non supportive submissions to the Highlands Council process
and two supreme court cases.

Really Minister?
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby lefroy » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 3:47 pm

Jealous! All I got was a letter saying I would receive a letter of 'nothing to see here bs' in the near future, still waiting
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Nuts » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 6:08 pm

Oh really? Of the 'hundreds of submissions' and what we know of thousands of objections, which one did they consider?
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby bushwalker zane » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 5:07 pm

lefroy wrote:Jealous! All I got was a letter saying I would receive a letter of 'nothing to see here bs' in the near future, still waiting


Still waiting on mine too, and the follow up email hasn't been acknowledged either! Useless.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby stepbystep » Thu 02 Jul, 2020 1:03 pm

Here is a petition and opportunity to communicate directly with those investing in the push to send choppers into the Western Lakes. The investors will receive the petition with your message when you sign up. Please keep it civil. This is about genuinely asking the investors to try and understand why Malbena Matters and why they should abandon their heli-tourism plans.

http://chng.it/WNqCkwV9ZL
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Hermione » Fri 03 Jul, 2020 3:43 pm

Dear SBS,
thank you for devoting your own time and energy to advocate for our wilderness areas.
"Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit"
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby stepbystep » Sat 04 Jul, 2020 11:20 am

Thanks Hermoine ... it's easier to follow the social channels for the FAWAHA group if you'd like to stay across it all. For example we post this today.

World Heritage Land leased to a 10 day old, $29 Company. With more information surfacing on who is backing this proposal this may be of interest. When Elise Archer MP - Liberal Member for Clark signed the lease for a 10 hectare World Heritage Island she signed it over to a company that was 10 days old and valued at $29. I'm sure we can all find $29 and submit a bad idea to the Minister. Who wants an island?

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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FAWAHATas/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AndFishers
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby north-north-west » Sat 04 Jul, 2020 11:39 am

290,000 shares worth a total of $29 = $0.00001 per share, or one hundredth of a cent each. What an investment opportunity!!!
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby stepbystep » Sat 04 Jul, 2020 4:47 pm

north-north-west wrote:290,000 shares worth a total of $29 = $0.00001 per share, or one hundredth of a cent each. What an investment opportunity!!!


It gives a scarily realistic representation of the value these plodders give on what I can only see as priceless. It makes the battle for hearts and minds a confusing affair.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Sun 05 Jul, 2020 9:35 am

Paying $29 is a peppercorn lease. See
https://www.intheblack.com/articles/201 ... orn-leases
The term “peppercorn lease” is generally used to describe a lease that has nil or nominal lease payments. For the purposes of the standard, the term also includes leases with lease payments that are more than nominal but significantly below market value, principally to enable an NFP to further its objective

*** extract ends.

The following figures are very rough but give an idea of the situation. The fixed camp could cost $200,000, about double the cost of the same build in a city. The cost of this is 3% so $600 a year for an interest only loan. A principle and interest loan would be around $15,000 a year. Getting the loan is doubtful given that Mr Hackett has a history of business failures, Further, unlike a principle place of residence, the Halls Island buildings are poor security. The reason is that while a PPOR can be sold, there would be very few people or corporations wiling to buy. Also, a court case or a change of government views can scupper the entire scheme. Hence, in my view the funds would have to be put up by the backers or they use a more secure asset as collateral, like their homes. Risky.

From memory there is advice advice about 240 clients a year paying $3000, a total of $720,000. A commercial markup may be 20-40%; this varies quite a bit. Using 30% this means that costs are $500,000 with $220,000 profit. This would go to the backers, with most to Mr Hackett. Say he gets $120,000 and the other backers get $100,000.

If the money is borrowed then the return on investment is huge, albeit with effort taking people fishing and administration. The $29 lease does not reflect the market value of the venture, and could be seen as a gift by the government. That is, there seems to be a breach of fiduciary duty by the minister, and this is something that the Auditor-General could investigate.

Does anyone know of similar leases and their cost, perhaps the OLT huts?
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Nuts » Sun 05 Jul, 2020 10:52 am

What is it? Doesn't that document/ part of(?) represent DH's share in the company , not the lease payment? The other similar document clipped(?) on the FWAHAT page includes the other shareholders at $162500?
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby stepbystep » Sun 05 Jul, 2020 11:42 am

Nuts wrote:What is it? Doesn't that document/ part of(?) represent DH's share in the company , not the lease payment? The other similar document clipped(?) on the FWAHAT page includes the other shareholders at $162500?


The other shareholders came later. This clipping was what Archer signed off on. A 10 day old company with $29 worth of shares.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Nuts » Sun 05 Jul, 2020 12:21 pm

Zero experience with leases here, but can imagine that getting copies of documents and dealings is made as difficult as possible.

There's nothing unusual about forming a company to start a business in this industry. And to show the least possible equity. This may seem dodgy but who else of us offer up personal assets in order to make their income (nobody in the public service, that's a given)? I'd expect all our favourite small businesses, involved with inherently risky operations, are started just this way.

At the same time the public would expect that a company proposing to built on and alter our wilderness would have the means to clean up or maintain their mess (as may happen with a tender agreement or should happen with eg. a mining lease) or pay their lease fee (when due, it's on hold for six months iirc). If the lease or other documents eg. required the other shareholders involvement or some means to show enough free $, fair enough. I could imagine this hasn't happened.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby taswegian » Sun 05 Jul, 2020 2:13 pm

north-north-west wrote:290,000 shares worth a total of $29 = $0.00001 per share, or one hundredth of a cent each. What an investment opportunity!!!

Wow NNW, you've just converted me.
A once ardent environmental lover has just seen the light and done what the proponent did and abandoned all previous stated preferences and gone money hungry.
How do I buy up these shares. I'm all in :D


I trust you didn't choke on your cappuccino :P
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Nuts » Mon 06 Jul, 2020 1:27 pm

Strikes, Floods, Landslides, Wildfires, EOI, Viruses and the Merino Mob... 1c per 10,000 seems about right.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Fri 10 Jul, 2020 6:18 pm

This evening I received an email from TNPA

Bad News! The Supreme Court’s decision on the appeal by TWS and TNPA was handed down late on Monday afternoon (6 July 2020).

Neither of our grounds of appeal succeeded. Obviously, this is extremely disappointing. We made a media release with The Wilderness Society the following day which can be read here.
https://tnpa.us16.list-manage.com/track ... eedf5619fc

The initial feedback from our legal team is that the decision is disappointing not only for the future of Halls Island. The decision does not fully explain the reasoning used by the Court and hence it is of limited use in clarifying the process for assessing future development proposals on reserved land. You can read the court’s full decision here.
https://tnpa.us16.list-manage.com/track ... eedf5619fc

The deadline for appealing this decision is 27 July (three weeks from now). TNPA and TWS are considering our options but the cost of further legal action is a major consideration.

Our appeal contended that the Resource Management and Planning Appeal Tribunal improperly delegated its assessment of the Lake Malbena proposal to Tasmania’s Parks and Wildlife Service and did not undertake its own assessment of the proposal against the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area Management Plan. The Court’s findings related to this legal point, not the merits of the proposal itself.

Regards,

Nick Sawyer, President
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby johnw » Sat 11 Jul, 2020 12:11 pm

Thanks Lophophaps. I received that email also, possibly along with others here.
Very disappointing, but I think it's important to note that they haven't given up just yet.
Looks like the Federal Minister has the ball at present.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Nuts » Sat 11 Jul, 2020 12:37 pm

Lophophaps wrote:The Court’s findings related to this legal point, not the merits of the proposal itself.


Here's the problem, and it's fundamental. All quaff aside, who ever thought the intent of Wilderness World Heritage would ever include access exclusive on the basis of nothing more than wealth, unnecessary overflights and sectioned-off private areas treated to urban like planning?

Equally as concerning, it's apparent 'a 'proposal' is open ended. At Lake Rodway the proponent seems to have just added in a standing camp, at least (so far) in their own interpretation.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 11 Jul, 2020 2:21 pm

johnw wrote:Very disappointing, but I think it's important to note that they haven't given up just yet. Looks like the Federal Minister has the ball at present.


Some people may say that the federal minister lacks the gumption, and the question of balls then arises. I cannot see a federal LNP government siding with conservation views over business views, even if the latter are very flawed.

Nuts wrote: the problem, and it's fundamental. All quaff aside, who ever thought the intent of Wilderness World Heritage would ever include access exclusive on the basis of nothing more than wealth, unnecessary overflights and sectioned-off private areas treated to urban like planning?

Equally as concerning, it's apparent 'a 'proposal' is open ended. At Lake Rodway the proponent seems to have just added in a standing camp, at least (so far) in their own interpretation.


Quite so. Saying that wealth is a prerequisite for national perk access is absurd. The private OLT huts are different in that they do not affect the masses staying at or near the PWS huts. Halls Island access is being severely curtailed. The Lake Rodway development could be an example of the salami technique. Get a toehold, then slowly expand. There was a flow chart of this posted above.

One hope may be that PWS monitors the development very closely, including water quality. If it takes drones to get pics of the miscreants fishing away from Malbena or otherwise breaking the law I can accept the short-term impact for the long-term good.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Nuts » Sat 11 Jul, 2020 3:48 pm

Lophophaps wrote: The private OLT huts are different in that they do not affect the masses staying at or near the PWS huts. Halls Island access is being severely curtailed.


I guess it's only inside the huts that is off limits (?). Still I can imagine the opposition would be far more widespread if Halls Island was the first such ingress. And also, as numbers increase for the use of private huts they stagnate for public walkers. Everyone has access to the public facilities (and the track). For want of who actually builds more acceptable sleeping space (which can, afterall, just be a tent platform) the capacity will be taken up by exclusive tours and at an expense to the public pool of places.This is set to repeat on many tracks, now with the advantage of the perception that it's the accepted norm.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby stepbystep » Fri 17 Jul, 2020 12:56 pm

An open letter was today sent to Tasmanian Parks and Wildlife boss Jason Jacobi, his staff, his minister, the ministers staff and media demanding some answers.
Attached here for your reading pleasure. We, (FAWAHA) believe Mr Jacobi needs to answer these questions and more, and PWS staff deserve to know that we support them despite the gag orders they have to work under.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Son of a Beach » Fri 17 Jul, 2020 1:55 pm

That's an excellent set of questions. Well put together and most poignant. Well done.

I would be very keen to see him engage in a fair dinkum discussion on each of these. But my expectations are more along the lines of evasive one-liner answers that don't actually address the meat of the questions, and/or long-winded regurgitation of pat marketing speak that the public service, the Hacketts and the Minister has been spouting already (again, that don't actually answer the questions people are asking).
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Fri 17 Jul, 2020 3:11 pm

Nuts, you have a valid point. If the private walkers have no impact on the other walkers then this is okay. Short of adding extra beds and/or camping platforms to the OLT private huts, private walkers cannot increase. The same comment applies to PWS huts and campsites. There may be natural limits, or limits set by management to maintain the environment. At this point it gets tricky. If there are, say, 60 walkers a day, who decides on the breakdown? This can be hard with walks that were formerly unregulated, like the South Coast Track and Walls of Jerusalem. Over the last 40 years I've camped at many WOJ places from Trappers Hut to Lake Ball, Stretcher Lake to New Years Lake. There is scope for more experienced people to camp away from the popular spots such as Dixons Kingdom. How can these sort of people be fitted into the number model? I sincerely hope that people who want to camp away from the regular spots are allowed to do so.

Step by Step, nice letter. If possible, this should be made known to PWS staff on the ground in the Central Plateau. Parks Victoria staff are very much for conservation values. I know of PV staff who are totally against head office policy that is contrary to conservation values, but they have to follow instructions. I've advised them of my support for them.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Nuts » Sun 19 Jul, 2020 6:50 pm

If I had to choose any model Lop it would be the 3 Capes public experience at most, with campsites, with park service guides, with accommodation in hubs, at cost or not for profit. All wholesome and not needing to re-define a language (or manipulate a management plan) to cater for. Limited comforts, preserved effort, natural limits to overuse. Whatever the future brings, hard to see promoting somewhere like the Walls without expecting all the side walks and special places wont be hammered.

Good questions. Business is business, at best temporarily 'good or evil'. Public servants do what they are told, I've never seen a formal 'gag order' and would encourage parkies to be driven by ethics than what they are supposed to say. Surely there's more to life than badges, whizzing around in choppers and 4wds, building *&%$#!, selling.

Anyhow.. yes, good questions, every right to at least ask and expect answers.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby north-north-west » Sun 19 Jul, 2020 7:40 pm

There is nothing wholesome about the footprint of the (Two Out of) Three Capes gluts. They're more than twice the size they need to be.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby lefroy » Sun 19 Jul, 2020 9:08 pm

sorry nuts, I'm with NNW...
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Nuts » Mon 20 Jul, 2020 8:12 am

Fair enough. I only include huts at all because it's probably too late already, but even public huts start/started us along the path of comfort driven expansion into wilderness areas. And they make 'building' ok (as a mindset). Like excessive use of choppers generally, may make commercial flights acceptable ('sustainable').
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 20 Jul, 2020 11:38 am

In one of the topics about Halls Island or elsewhere (may have been a submission) there's a flow chart of incremental reduction in wild places. I goes something like this.
The car park is crowded so another car park is built.

The tracks are muddy so they have metal, gravel or timber to protect the environment.

Campsites are deteriorating so add camping platforms.

The above means that there are now more people, so there are slow "improvements" in the form of sealing the carparks, making them bigger, existing tracks with more of the above treatments, new tracks, bigger campsites with more platforms.

The numbers are now such that bookings are required, with huts for rangers.

Media concern about the lack of amenity for the increased bumbly bushwalkers leads to huts being built.

Commercial groups see the opportunity and want a few discrete huts, minimal impact on the environment or other users.

Over time, new commercial huts are added. As there is a limit on how many people can visit at one time, non-commercial bushwalkers who pay the managing agency less than the commercial groups are slowly reduced.

Former basic campsites are now gone, and the area is heavily regulated.

*** ends

The former wild charm is now gone, with visitors think that they have been bsuhwalking. Right. Boardwalks, lots of signs, seats on the track at intervals, handrails, huts, Wi-Fi ... This is not my scene at all. I'll go to New Years Lake, Payanna or the Mountains of Jupiter, wild places.

The above has happened to varying extents on the OLT, South Coast Track, Walls of Jerusalem, Two Capes (like NNW I can count), Otways, Grampians and elsewhere. Halls Island is another small loss. It's getting to the point that new huts, new tracks, helicopters and the rest are becoming the new norm. This attitudinal shift has permeated the government and some agencies, and not just in Tasmania.
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Re: Luxury camp inside Walls of Jerusalem WHA with heli acce

Postby Nuts » Wed 22 Jul, 2020 4:49 pm

Interesting times to see what sort of attitude evolves from our virus crisis. It should be increasingly hard to argue against simple facilities & dispersed camping, bums off seats..

At the very least P&W should review any current plans for accommodation upgrades and leases involving communal/ buildings.
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