Electrolytes

[TerraMer]

What do you use?
I use Shotz tabs, 1 tab/500ml, 1ltr with electrolytes to every 3 ltrs water
Has anyone tried Dextro or Himalayan rock salt?

[andrewbish]

I have been using Endura. Delicious and, afaict, effective.

[wayno]

himalayan sea salt. how much depends on how long I"m walking and how much I"m sweating
on easier days quarter of a teaspoon, harder days a teaspoon....
mainly for the sodium. and some trace minerals..
i'm in nz so aussies may need more salt in summer..
i seem to function ok on not much salt...

you can get a lot of your potassium, magnesium and phosphorus and various other minerals in dried fruit
i eat lentils again a lot of various minerals in those esp potassium,
i've never taken an electrolyte supplement. never have cramp on my current regime.... cramp used to be a problem when i was less fussy about what i eat

[Rob A]

Just eat properly.
Change your dietry intake as little from your normal (presumably healthy)
If you intend to use these things train with them so that your body can actually utilise them.
Theres an aweful lot of bumf printed about this topic, just recognize its driven to a large degree by the waring softdrinks manufacturers.
Thers no fixed ratio. It is dependent on how much of the "stuff" you injest over a period of time.
More often the body needs hydration so that it can expell and excrete the burn products of your exercise.

[wayno]

if you look at people who have health problems when they are exercising, such as cramp or low mineral levels, often you'll find that they have a poor diet....
most people consume far to much sodium and their body excretes it in the urine, they go exercising, sweat a lot, and drink too much and their body keeps passing out the sodium at a high rate for a while even though there is little coming in while they are exercising, they run out of sodium....
takes the body a while to readjust the rate of excretion to match the intake...

[TerraMer]

Say for example I am vegetarian and potentially walking for months away from supermarkets, roadhouse food being the freshest I will find every 200kms or so. 1 food drop full of dehy meals/protein bars/energy bars/dried and powdered fruits/nuts/seeds/gluten free muesli/multi vitamins/etc every 10-14 days, 70ltr water drops every 7 days, all carried/pulled in an 100kg maximum capacity trekking cart through dark morning and evening walking conditions up to 40 degrees celcius while consuming about 7-9 ltrs of water purely for drinking each day.

What do you suggest as the best and safest salt/sodium replacement?

These are the actual conditions I will be walking in soon, now I have finished a 1200km walk around paradise (Tassie)

[wayno]

himalayan salt,, has a lot of trace minerals that table salt doesnt... more balanced...
also seaweed flakes, not kelp,, but theres a limit, too much and you can overdose on iodine, depends how much from person to person, can over stimulate the thyroid. but it has a lot of different minerals in it.. may only need the odd pinch a day combined with salt, kelp is far higher in iodine than other seaweeds

[TerraMer]

Thanks guys,

Some food for thought.

I have tried Endura but not the berry flavoured one, I tried one that tasted like drinking chalk. It has the same ingredients as Shotz.

I will definitely try Himalayan rock salt

Buying a food dehydrator next week so I can prepare my own meals and have more control over nutrients and flavour

[Orion]

What do you use?

Food.

[wayno]

any salt is better tahn no salt but himalayan or celtic salt is better than table salt , sodium is important and its nearly half the content of all salt

[wayno]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/exe ... eplacement

An alternative to commercial fluid replacement beverages is easily prepared by adding ¼ - ½ teaspoon of salt to one litre (32 ounces) of water, which is equivalent to about 600 and 1200mg of sodium per litre. Salt (sodium chloride) tablets are available, but eight ounces of fluid (250mL) must be consumed with every 200mg of sodium so that the concentration of sodium in blood does not rise too rapidly. Salt tablets are more effective and better tolerated (they may cause gastrointestinal problems in some people) if they are crushed and mixed with water.

[Orion]

Packaged dehydrated food usually has loads of salt, too much in many cases. A few popular supermarket brands of instant rice and pasta dishes I can't stand because they are so salty. Freeze-dried meals for walkers are among the worst. Packaged soups are also loaded with salt. I make my own dehydrated food and when I do I -- wait for it -- add salt to the dish. I put it in just like I would if I were making it to eat freshly prepared.

I can see situations where electrolyte replacement would be important. One would be in a very hot climate where you are perspiring especially heavily and drinking lots and lots of water. Another might be if you have a history of hyponatremia, which can be quite serious. A third might be if your food choices are very poor.

I've gone vegetarian on walks. The only issue for me is that I find it easier to get calories from animal fats versus vegetable fats. But it's only a matter of preference/palatability and has nothing to do with electrolytes. A friend of mine eats nuts on walks where I'll eat salami and does just fine. And of course sodium isn't the only electrolyte your body needs.

But that's me and people I know. Maybe you're different and really need supplements?

If so, how did you figure out that you do?

[wayno]

sodium loss is a bigger issue than other electrolytes when you're sweating a lot because of its high concentration in sweat.
its debateable why theres so much sodium in sweat. a lot of people need the sodium replacement when they sweat.
I've found i dot need nearly as much salt as what the text books say and i dont function well when i take as much as the text books say i should when exercising.
its arguable your body uses sweat to dump excess salt and the body is more likely to flush out too much salt when you take too much and then exercise and drink a lot of unsalted fluid..
people who arent heat aclimatised who then start exercising in hot conditions can loose up to twice the minerals in their sweat as heat conditioned people

[Orion]

Salt is primarily excreted in the urine. Sweat is hypotonic compared to your body tissues and a normal person only loses a lot of salt that way through profuse sweating. So, for a normal person at least, it's a a long bout of exercising in the heat that can lead to hyponatremia. Marathon runners are at risk as they are usually drinking but not eating.

It's true that some people sweat more than others and some people have saltier sweat. For whatever reason, small females also tend to be at risk for hyponatremia.

I eat when I walk, and I'm rarely (if ever) working as hard as a marathon runner, even when I'm walking further than a marathon. So, for me, it has never been an issue. I "supplement" with food that contains some salt. Maybe under prolonged unusually hot and dry conditions I'd have to do something else, I don't know. When I have sweat myself silly the problem has been dehydration, or at least that's what I concluded.

Again: I'm curious how did you determine that you need to supplement?

[wayno]

how much salt is lost int the urine is a combination of the result of how much salt is ingested and how much urine is passed...
if you dont consume a high amount of salt you shouldnt be passing a lot of sodium in your urine

[Orion]

how much salt is lost int the urine is a combination of the result of how much salt is ingested and how much urine is passed...
if you dont consume a high amount of salt you shouldnt be passing a lot of sodium in your urine

Yes, what I meant was that most people consume far more sodium than necessary and the majority of that extra sodium goes out in the urine for most people.

One last time: How did you determine that you need electrolyte supplements?

[wayno]

i eat a low salt diet, i'm intolerant to high amounts of salt. i had a hair mineral analysis that showed i was low in sodium , so i supplemented with small amounts of himalayan salt and seaweed flakes... most of my other electrolytes are ok, i'm taking teh salt primarily for the sodium, otherwise its only of use for trace minerals not the main ones like potassium and magnesium.
the seaweed gives me iodine and more sodium and trace minerals

[Orion]

Hair analysis? Interesting, I would have thought a blood test would give the best indicatation of your sodium level.
Thanks for answering the question.

It's funny about salt. When we visit Australia we always bring home some of the ordinary supermarket "Saxa" salt. I think we had kilo in the duffle last time. We like it because of the crystal size. The grains are larger than what they typically sell here and that has an effect on how it tastes on food. I know there are a whole raft of specialty salts, some quite expensive (and beautiful). But I'd be nervous about yak dung in Himalayan salt.

That was a joke by the way.

[wayno]

blood mneral analysis is affected by what your last meal was
hair analysis shows what the mineral levels are like in the rest of the body over a period of months and gives a better average
using blood tests for determining iron levels is next to useless...
the blood is one of the last places iron levels drop after stores in the marrow have been exhausted, a hair analysis will pick up iron levels more accurately
otherwise a blood test measuring ferritin is a more accurate indicator of iron levels...
the guy who analyse my hair had it sent to a lab , he has some shocking results from his patients... some essential minerals can be virtually non existent, others can be sky high,,, no one has come back with a normal result...

http://blog.garymoller.com/2012/08/chro ... elite.html

[TerraMer]

Hi Orion
seeing as i posted the thread i will answer the question and perhaps you can add some more helpful information.
I am a long distance solo unsuppoted walker, not on a daily distance but over a set time i cover long distances, eg, mid Aussie summer 1400km walks at an average of 30kms/day. i have slowed down on this current walk of 32,000kms around and across Australia to 25km/day but i will be avoiding the hottest part of the day and walking from about 4am until approx 35 degrees c or i cover the set distance which ever comes first.
I discovered the benefits of electrolytes when walking in WA about 8 years ago in summer. they made a huge difference. i have been using them ever since. i have very active sweat glands and have had to use salt tablets working on decks of ships in the Kimberley buildup and Pursian Gulf summer. if i don't replace my electrolytes and other minerals, as mentioned earlier about the endura product, i will have a very restless sleep followed by a bad day of walking struggling through heat stress like problems. over 25 degrees c i need more than 3ltrs drinking water. up to 40 degrees c i can drink up to 10ltrs of water in a day and have no urge to pee.
on a side note i am happy to say i have just purchased a dehydrator so i can prepare very nutritious and palatable food that will last the months i need them while away from our everyday conveniences like kitchens, refridgeration and fresh water.

[wayno]

heat acclimatised people sweat a lot more and drink more than non heat acclimatised.
scientific study done by the british army in Oman showed this...

[matagi]

blood mneral analysis is affected by what your last meal was
hair analysis shows what the mineral levels are like in the rest of the body over a period of months and gives a better average
using blood tests for determining iron levels is next to useless...
the blood is one of the last places iron levels drop after stores in the marrow have been exhausted, a hair analysis will pick up iron levels more accurately
otherwise a blood test measuring ferritin is a more accurate indicator of iron levels...
the guy who analyse my hair had it sent to a lab , he has some shocking results from his patients... some essential minerals can be virtually non existent, others can be sky high,,, no one has come back with a normal result...

http://blog.garymoller.com/2012/08/chro ... elite.html

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. Hair analysis is not a valid measure of body mineral levels over time - there are no internationally agreed upon base values. For example, the sodium content of your hair can be affected by the external environment such as if you spend a lot of time in salt spray or work in an area where mineral dusts are prevalent and even by the type of shampoo and conditioner you use.

[wayno]

the tests take into account use of shampoo...

[wayno]

i've had multiple hair analysis tests, before and after starting recommended nuttritional supplement regime with a health practitioner. there was no difference with anything put externally onto my hair, i'm not exposed to salt spray. while the first couple of tests were similar there was a big shift in the results on the last test. in line with nutritional supplementation, to me the tests did show some consistency as to what was going on inside my body with mineral levels...
my health practitioner has successfuly used this hair analysis to diagnose and treat health problems in numerous patients. if it was so inaccurate in its results he wouldnt have sucess with so many patients like me.. i used to have severe chronic fatigue which i'd had for years and all other treatments had failed... i think there is enough accuracy in the tests to be of use.
theres a lot of areas science can't agree apon, a lot of medical science is based on pumping pharmaceuticals into people to treat them and there is no end of conjecture to the efficacy of that form of treatment... just beccuse mainstream medical science doesnt ebrace hair mineral analysis doesnt make it inaccurate

[Orion]

theres a lot of areas science can't agree apon, a lot of medical science is based on pumping pharmaceuticals into people to treat them and there is no end of conjecture to the efficacy of that form of treatment... just beccuse mainstream medical science doesnt ebrace hair mineral analysis doesnt make it inaccurate

Science can most certainly be wrong, but in this case it isn't fair to say that it's an area science can't agree upon. There is scientific consensus. And the mainstream not only refuses to embrace mineral hair analysis, it campaigns against it. The American Medical Association has called it unsupported scientifically and with a potential for fraud.

[Orion]

Hi TerraMar, thanks for explaining that about yourself. That's a lot of time out walking!
Anyways, when walking I drink plain water and get my sodium from food, usually in an overabundance. It works for me.
If you find it works better for you to ingest salt in your liquids, then that's that!

[wayno]

maybe this needs to be another thread,
the american medical association is behind chemotherapy, radiation therapy and dispensing pharaceuticals on a horrendous scale and there is evidence piling up against such widespread use of these practices....
that is my last statement on this thread on this subject , I think its going off topic and it should be a different thread

[nq111]

What do you suggest as the best and safest salt/sodium replacement?

I don't have much to add here but am very interested in the topic. It is hard to find a consistent thread through the more credible evidence (I need to try harder?).

One site of interest for exercise in heat that I have not fully explored is http://www.badwater.com/training/index.html. There seems to be good, well-founded evidence and some of the competitors posting articles are physicians etc. It is also very interesting as to the role of aclimatisation - perhaps this partly explains the variation in evidence for the need for electrolyte supplements? (i.e. less aclimated people excrete more salts and maybe need more electrolytes).

How has your experience been adapting to exercising in heat and coping over many days?

I believe the original creator of gatorade was a biochemist of some repute?

I have not yet tried electrolytes (and I am commonly out in humid, tropical heat) but am open to using them if I am convinced by some evidence.

[wayno]

the "sports drinks" with added sugar can be a problem, sugar on its own isolated into supplements like that are acidic, the acidity reduces your exercise performance, another reason why eating whole food is a better answer to energysing, if you want to take electrolyes do it with supplements that arent energy supplements , ones that dont have added sugars...

[Pteropus]

Hydralyte works really well. I keep several sachets in my first aid kit and have used them on a few occasions.