Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

[wildwanderer]

I was browsing the Therm-a-rest site and I noticed warnings have now appeared on a number of products.

On NeoAir Xlite. https://www.thermarest.com/mattresses/f ... oair-xlite
WARNING: Can expose you to toluene, which is known to the State of California to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm.

Most other Therm a Rest products now carry a similar warning. Including the Xtherm

here is their faq
https://www.thermarest.com/faq?category=13

Apparently, this has to do with a California law stating

If a warning is placed on a product label or posted or distributed at a workplace, a business, or in rental housing, the business issuing the warning is aware or believes that it is exposing individuals to one or more listed chemicals.

By law, a warning must be given for listed chemicals unless the exposure is low enough to pose no significant risk of cancer or is significantly below levels observed to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm.

https://www.p65warnings.ca.gov/

I wonder how many other outdoor products are affected by this...

MSR also now has a bunch of warnings on different products including stoves.

Is the risk real for those of us who regularly use these products or is it a case of needing to sleep on the mattress every night to be at risk?

This could be a case of "everything" (including non outdoor equipment) we touch has a potential chemical/contaminant residue which may cause harm and a government dept has decided it needs to warn people regardless of the practicalities of avoiding the exposure. So not much you can do except live in a bubble . Of course the bubble is likely made of plastic as well

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

As someone who frequents California with work, there is rarely a product or food I purchase without this warning.

They’ve gone completely overboard. I’d say toulene is used as part of the manufacture process, but if you chemically tested the finished product you’d never find it.

From memory I ate bacon at a place in California and the menu had a warning to say it’s carcinogenic.

[GPSGuided]

Life is a terminal disease and water can kill too.

Really, it’s about being sensible and have common sense. The concentration of chemical would be so low in the final product the risk would be near zero or non-existent in practice.

[north-north-west]

Given the amount of time I've spent encased in head to toe rubber, toluene offgassing from a sleeping mat is the last of my worries.

btw, there are few smells as addictive as the scent of a brand new neoprene wetsuit or drysuit, although it may be an acquired taste.

[GPSGuided]

One thing to recognise though, whilst many of these agents in our environment have caused cancer and other life terminating illnesses, in the big picture, our life expectancy has increased at the population level. Don’t go deliberately sniff these agents or do stupid things. Fact is, if the concentration is so great to cause an effect, it wouldn’t even be allowed on the market.

[Orion]

We have a voter initiative process in California that is simply bananas. Each election there are numerous propositions on the ballot and it's very difficult for an informed person, never mind the average voter, to figure out what makes sense. A lot of bad law is enacted this way. Proposition 65 was passed by the voters about thirty years ago. This is why just about everything has that effectively meaningless warning on it. It would be funny if it were a joke.

Are there substances that, in aggregate, could increase your risk of cancer? Sure. But your sleeping pad is probably not high on the list of sources.

[Franco]

At maternity wards we should have a clear warning that giving life is the major cause of death.

[Turfa]

Yeah, these warnings are everywhere in California. I have even seen them posted in totally open-air carparks to warn you about the cancer risk of vehicle exhaust.

Of course the really unfortunate result of this is warning burn-out. People see them so much they stop paying attention, possibly also to cancer/health warnings that are valid.

[wildwanderer]

Wow, seems completely ridiculous having a warning on virtually everything.

Im all for keeping companies honest about their materials and any known (and real) risks but there needs to be some common sense applied. (and confirmation a product actually poses a significant risk before a warning is slapped on.)

[Warin]

Im all for keeping companies honest about their materials and any known (and real) risks but there needs to be some common sense applied.

"Common sense" is not common. Some standards are written "there will be 0 of this", fine when the equipment avalible reads 0, 1, 2, 3 and so on. But when newer equipment goes 0, 0.01, 0.02, 0.03 there is a problem .. The older equipment would pass things the newer gear fails. Standards need to be written considering this, in this case "there will be less than 1 of this" would have been a better statement.

[Neo]

'virtually everything' we have around us contains or emit toxins. Sad but true. The problem is the accumulation of everything and time.

Warning is likely to be in regards to an added flame retardant. Those chemicals molecule is shaped like estrogens and get stuck in the body. Also parfume/fragrance chemicals are known endocrine disruptors. The endocrine system controls all the hormones, growth and cell development. Then there are VOCs too!

So sadly it's in your bedding, furniture and cushions, kids stuff, carpets, curtains, kitchen cupboards, tile glue,house paint, your car, soap, deodorant, airfreshener, scented most-anything, camping gear and maybe clothes. I'm not ranting, it's just a science and modern life.

That's not considering what's in the local environment, vehicle emissions, food production, cookwear and food packaging. Again it's the overwhelming surrounding of the convenient crap we are used to. Gear included.

[Al M]

Well the official figures are not great to be letting the guard down https://www.cancer.org.au/about-cancer/ ... gures.html

Could it be the USA is ahead on this issue by letting people make informed choices and those who want ignore it go their own way.

[Turfa]

Well the official figures are not great to be letting the guard down https://www.cancer.org.au/about-cancer/ ... gures.html

Could it be the USA is ahead on this issue by letting people make informed choices and those who want ignore it go their own way.

The problem is that when warnings are overused, it actually decreases you ability to make an informed choice.

[Orion]

The problem is that when warnings are overused, it actually decreases you ability to make an informed choice.

I don't think that's really the case. There are still other ways to communicate the information. And laws can still be passed prohibiting the use of specific substances.

The intent of the law is good. Supposedly it led to the removal of a number of potentially dangerous substances from products. But because the enforcement is through lawsuits many places simply post a blanket warning. I remember when it first passed they just put up a sign where I was working to cover everything and anything there that just might be carcinogenic. So the end result is that in most cases people just ignore the warning. It doesn't necessarily detract from learning about dangers, it just doesn't often serve to add information.

The maintained list of substances is pretty long. In the first ten items I recognized an FDA approved prescription drug that I sometimes take. Further down, right after arsenic and asbestos, you will find aspirin on the list. It's a black list and there is no rating of relative risk. And substances are sometimes removed from the list as the science, which is difficult to do with a high degree of certainty, changes.

Add to that the fact that exposure level is an important factor. Just knowing that the substance is there at some unstated concentration and could be cancer causing at some level of exposure over some period of time doesn't inform you very well. It leads people to either be paranoid or blasé.

[Al M]

If they don’t state it on the product in the first instance then how can anyone be informed. If one is concerned then you can look it up or ignore it. The decision to buy such a product with the warning on it does not have to result in the buyer objecting to the warning as if to question their judgement in buying and continue using it in the first place. US EPA laws on paper at least are very advanced, they ban new schools being built close to freeways to reduce growing kids breathing too much exhaust fumes over the life term of schooling, while here in Aust nothing at all like that to protect our kids.

We happily drive cars with known risks but don’t object much about using the safety belts.

US EPA and health science research and standards have and are still are one of the main reference points all over the world for 50 years. Look up any Material Safety Data sheet on any item and see for one’s self that the science and the warning is justified and can see the stated risks, see here https://aesolutions.com.au/products/Downloads/154

It is common health science when one cannot find a standard in Aust or another country to lookup the US EPA standards as a basis for making informed decisions.

It depends on how serious the risk levels and harm is but things like asbestos are not only enforced by lawsuits. In Aust there are regulations prohibiting new construction materials using this since 1990, with big fines for doing bad things with old asbestos containing material and heaps of warnings and advice etc. There are armies of work health and safety plus public health inspectors risk assessing it and enforcing it regularly on a daily basis.

What is happening here in this post is the product warning advice is being incorrectly interpreted. Instead the advice should be read as yes there is potential for harm, do not ingest (eat) and inhale the burnt remains of your sleeping matt because toluene gets up your nose and may increase the risks for cancer and people carrying babies increasing mutations. So the upshot of that is dear US health regulators thank you for the warning, I will avoid eating or inhaling my beautiful new expensive sleep matt, there is very little risk of harm and I can sleep easy and don’t need to roll around all night thinking whether I have bought the wrong product. Simple as that, and not launch into a critique of the entire US EPA health science products advanced warning labelling system.

Also, maybe don’t sleep butt naked with your private parts rubbing up against the matt incase you absorb toluene through the soft sweaty parts of the body

[Warin]

things like asbestos are not only enforced by lawsuits. In Aust there are regulations prohibiting new construction materials using this since 1990,

Yet there are still 'concrete' materials made to a similar specification as 'fibro'. It simply used a different fibre to do the same job as asbestos. That fibre may well be found to have similar properties to cause health problems. But the manufacturing process is now much better so we will have to wait for the builders and home renovators to die to find out that this too is a danger. One of the manufactures is our old friends - James Hardie.

[Al M]

“Yet there are still 'concrete' materials made to a similar specification as 'fibro'

The term fibro is not only specific to asbestos products, it can apply also to cement sheet cellulose products. Cement dust or silica in it has its own issues and also known cancer agent but presently not known to be as deadly (breath in heaps more to get sick) as asbestos (breath in heaps less to get sick) and can cause different lung illness, see here MSDS http://cockburncement.com.au/wp-content ... pril12.pdf and https://www.cancer.org.au/preventing-ca ... -dust.html

You are partly correct given what the health science experts presently know in 2019. There have been studies out since 1990s showing that many non asbestos type building material dusts from bricks, concrete, MDF, natural wood fibres, kitchen bench top stone silica (see last years news on many stone cut workers affected) and fibreglass all dusted into the air by high speed cutting power tools have been shown to be about a third to half or as bad as asbestos in lung diseases. However, this does not diminish in any way or should be used to dilute the well know risks of asbestos dust and dangers to health if in the wrong situation at the wrong concentrations.

All of this just suggests to be more aware of what else can get you and continue to follow the best safety advice available on the day, not use it as some kind of excuse to let the guard down.

[trekker76]

I think chemicals are part of the reason cancer is on the rise as a swathe of other chronic illnesses. However given the amount we are using, eating and breathing I don't think this one chemical used in sleeping bags is going to make a rats patoot difference. I wouldn't worry about it.

Cancer is generally worrying though. When I was growing up I knew no one with brain cancer and 1-2 folks with other types of cancer. I got used to being in countries where you just dont see or hear of it either, Back in my hometown again and I know about 6 kids with cancer(!) and more guys and girls my age I care to count. Cue millienals telling me its all in my mind and we are living longer. The oldest generation alive now is currently living longer...but they grew up in a different environment. My generation X still doesnt know what its lifetime is going to be...ask me in 2050..

[Neo]

...ask me in 2050..

Yep. New and cumulative.

I have cysts in my kidneys. Born 1976. Who knows what my parents were subjected or affected by in their food/water/workplace back then. Maybe it's a natural mutation.
Lucky I have the 'adult' version so at 42 tests show function is STILL normal despite them now being double size no more room in the abdomen...
Why? Chemical influence, genetics, poor genes? AM radio frequency, UFOs..?!
Nobody knows but it's 1/100.

[ribuck]

Here's a science-based list of items known to be carcinogens:

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-ca ... ogens.html

Notice that "Alcoholic beverages" is on the list. Drinking alcohol is higher risk than sleeping on your Thermarest in a ventilated tent.

Also on the list is "Processed meats", probably due to the nitrites that are added to it. In the UK, it is estimated that bacon causes as many deaths due to bowel cancer as all the road deaths, and I see no reason why it wouldn't be similar in Australia.

[Hiking Noob]

It depends on how serious the risk levels and harm is but things like asbestos are not only enforced by lawsuits. In Aust there are regulations prohibiting new construction materials using this since 1990, with big fines for doing bad things with old asbestos containing material and heaps of warnings and advice etc. There are armies of work health and safety plus public health inspectors risk assessing it and enforcing it regularly on a daily basis.

I actually came across asbestos the other day, I had never knowingly encountered asbestos brake linings before as they have been banned for quite some time in Australia but here it was on an almost new machine. People are importing cheap machinery and it is supposedly quite common for off brand machines to have asbestos brakes.
Great Wall and Chery had to recall vehicles with asbestos gaskets a few years ago, they didn't ship with warnings about the possible health complications for mechanics.

[Al M]

It depends on how serious the risk levels and harm is but things like asbestos are not only enforced by lawsuits. In Aust there are regulations prohibiting new construction materials using this since 1990, with big fines for doing bad things with old asbestos containing material and heaps of warnings and advice etc. There are armies of work health and safety plus public health inspectors risk assessing it and enforcing it regularly on a daily basis.

I actually came across asbestos the other day, I had never knowingly encountered asbestos brake linings before as they have been banned for quite some time in Australia but here it was on an almost new machine. People are importing cheap machinery and it is supposedly quite common for off brand machines to have asbestos brakes.
Great Wall and Chery had to recall vehicles with asbestos gaskets a few years ago, they didn't ship with warnings about the possible health complications for mechanics.

Yes asbestos is getting through some imports screening. The newly built Princess Margaret Children’s hospital in Perth had construction materials from China with it and had to be replaced.

Nearly all Aust houses, buildings and fibro fencing built or installed before 1990 will have about 3-13%+ asbestos content in materials, which we are living around large swathes of suburbs today on daily basis but it isn’t causing mass deaths while left alone and safely managed in most cases. Instead it is causing a lower level though still unnecessary deaths with mining and trades the highest rates and then house renovators (much lower) being affected in that order. Even if you are exposed to asbestos dust it will take a lot of exposure to have a problem as the body is able to exclude most of it unless you are unlucky and a smaller number of people are affected this way.

[slparker]

Here's a science-based list of items known to be carcinogens:

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-ca ... ogens.html

Notice that "Alcoholic beverages" is on the list. Drinking alcohol is higher risk than sleeping on your Thermarest in a ventilated tent.

Also on the list is "Processed meats", probably due to the nitrites that are added to it. In the UK, it is estimated that bacon causes as many deaths due to bowel cancer as all the road deaths, and I see no reason why it wouldn't be similar in Australia.

Two rashers a day increases your risk of colorectal cancer from 5% to 6% - two rashers a day is more than most people would consume. Bacon and red meat consumption is not suicide by bowel cancer but it is true that risk is raised and that it is dose dependent.

Another way of reducing your risk (of colorectal and other cancers) back to, or lower than, statistical baseline is to increase exercise and/or vegetable intake. So, statistically, you can reduce your risk of cancer whilst eating bacon so long as you increase other cancer protective behaviours.

See, you can have it all.

[Warin]

See, you can have it all.

Nup. Not keep my waist line and eat all that food...

[Gadgetgeek]

None of us make it out alive, and living longer is directly linked to a greater risk of cancer. Do the screenings that fit for your demographic, don't put off weird lumps, and do your best. We'll all get skin cancer from enjoying sunsets before the chemicals in our puffer jackets has an effect. One in a million chances happen 700 times a day.

Chemical run off in nature, different story, but you all get that already. Nothing new there.

Maybe its because I'm comparatively young. But I think it has more to do with waking up on a stretcher in the elevator of the unit five months ago. There is a limit to how much you can worry about your health, and you'll never know which was the thing that helped keep you going, or what was the one thing you should have avoided. I got lucky, the thing in my skull that isn't brain shouldn't cause me more problems, but its just playing the stats. Maybe I don't end up on the happy end of the bell curve? Maybe the next time my body wakes up but not all of my brain does? Still gotta keep the rest of the machine healthy, but it isn't worth stressing.

[crollsurf]

Love Bacon. Love bushwalking. Hate going to work and being chained to a desk.

I know whats killing me and it aint the Thermarest.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[trekker76]

I live in one of the agricutlural centres of the country for certain fruits and vegetables and we are bombarding them with so many high level chemicals at hirtherto unheard levels. Herbicides, pesticides, biocides. Nemacur, banned in several countries in Europe and the USA, gramoxone, banned in 32 countries, Tordon 2-4, developed in the vietnam war as a defoliant, lorsban, always under attack for banning in the US, ethyelene used for accelerating ripening( oh yes, bananas arent their real color), also banned in several countries due to arsenic and phosphorous traces. Australia no problem, anyone can buy most of this stuff and use it unregulated, drain it right into waterways. Even our rules for crop dusting ( margins, minimum spraying distances from water ways, schools, residential areas) have gone out the window in this country.

And some study shows 'two extra rashers of bacon' has been linked for the jump in bowel cancer. Good heavens, the wheels have fallen completely off the wagon of common sense.

[Orion]

Public parking today in San Jose, California:

[Stew63]

When recently purchasing my +1s latest Thermarest UltraLite cot I saw for the first time the Cancer/BirthDefects warnings on the Thermarest website - but not on the on-line retailers website. On receiving the cot there's no mention/warning of it by Thermarest anywhere in the cot bundle either.

[Al M]

Public parking today in San Jose, California:

3830.jpg

Is the parking lot open air or enclosed underground or similar?

From a health science perspective vehcile exhaust and concentrations of it have long been known to cause all manner of health issues including cancer at a low level of occurrence, so nothing surprising but the care taken to warn the ungrateful public.

This is what Propistion 65 is about https://oehha.ca.gov/proposition-65/abo ... osition-65, would say it’s pretty advanced stuff giving the public who voted on it the ability to make an informed choice.

All the bad stuff listed in Proposition 65, benzene or fuel being one of them and it’s also safe to breath in 100 asbestos fibres per day https://oehha.ca.gov/media/downloads/pr ... 100418.pdf