Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Orion » Sun 24 Feb, 2019 11:40 pm

Al M wrote:Is the parking lot open air or enclosed underground or similar?


Open air. A pretty small lot. They might as well have that sign on every street corner in the whole city, in every city and town in the whole state.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Flipper Hands » Tue 26 Feb, 2019 11:41 am

crollsurf wrote:Love Bacon. Love bushwalking. Hate going to work and being chained to a desk.

I know whats killing me and it aint the Thermarest.

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You, sir, took the words right out of my mouth.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Al M » Tue 26 Feb, 2019 10:47 pm

Even though I am supporting the science and the product warnings I fully get that it appears far fetched to the ordinary person, unbelievable or surprising for those in countries where this does not happen and I’m not saying this should be happening here as well.

But it is a very interesting to see action being taken in one corner of the world based on the statistical science fact that each of these chemicals are proven to be problems however small yet still significant in terms of the lower risk, that the California public voted on this law, and government took action to warn the wider public about such materials. There is a lot of science saying that cancers are strongly influenced by a broad range of environmental pollution, products, what we eat and genetics and increased by a combination of all of that so it is logical how these warnings have come about and a first step in trying to address the issue to peg back the problem in the population.

The cancer and other issues are strongly reflected among lifestyles and different cultures across the globe where more or less of these cancer causing agents are prevalent. For example, bacon eating westerners have higher rates of bowel cancer whereas eastern Asians have their own issues with liver cancer. See here cancer rates by country and Aust has the highest in the world probably due to sun exposure and bowel related processed meat consumption cancers while living long enough for cancers to develop https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/canc ... cy-country

See here types of common cancers by country map

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-p ... o.jpg?w660
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 27 Feb, 2019 8:14 am

This present Californian regulation can also be considered to be a product of US’s litigious culture, leading to this ‘I warned you’ solution.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Orion » Wed 27 Feb, 2019 8:37 am

It can be considered that way but it's the wrong way to look at it. The intention of the proposition was good and there have in fact been many positive effects. But unfortunately the warning labels and signs are rendered largely meaningless both because they are often included where unnecessary and because they provide no information about the specific substances, the potential exposure levels, or the risks. Most people here think the signs are silly. But very few are opposed to reducing harmful substances in the environment. Perhaps the law could have been written a little differently with respect to the signs.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby wayno » Wed 27 Feb, 2019 10:38 am

toluene has been used in insect repellent for a long time
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 27 Feb, 2019 10:51 am

Problem with many of these warnings is that they are often based on laboratory cellular level studies, at concentration or conditions that don't exactly match real life. Whilst many if not most chemical can induce malignant changes, in real life, the dose required are way beyond what are being encountered, then there's body's natural detox mechanism. Fact is, human face toxins all the time and have a certain level of tolerance and defence, but the breaking point can also be different b/n individuals. Too often people become obsessed with the minutiae and forget the big picture for health, longevity and happy living. It really comes down to weight control, diet, exercise and a positive frame of mind. Avoidance of chemical would take one out of society and be a hermit in the woods. But then there are still potential for natural environmental toxin and conditions to induce cancer. Everything in moderation... LOL
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Orion » Wed 27 Feb, 2019 11:59 am

wayno wrote:toluene has been used in insect repellent for a long time


Which repellent?
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Orion » Wed 27 Feb, 2019 12:03 pm

GPSGuided wrote:Too often people become obsessed with the minutiae and forget the big picture for health, longevity and happy living. It really comes down to weight control, diet, exercise and a positive frame of mind. Avoidance of chemical would take one out of society and be a hermit in the woods. But then there are still potential for natural environmental toxin and conditions to induce cancer. Everything in moderation... LOL


The fact that the signage is often misleading or insufficient doesn't negate what is a real risk. You can't avoid all potentially dangerous substances but that doesn't mean you should ignore them either. You can control your weight, diet, and be in great shape but still get sick due to prolonged exposure to some substance or substances. It happens to people. It's worth knowing what those substances are, where you might encounter them, and what the relative risks are. It's too bad the simple idea of posting a sign doesn't adequately convey that information. You have to do some research.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 27 Feb, 2019 4:18 pm

Orion wrote:You can control your weight, diet, and be in great shape but still get sick due to prolonged exposure to some substance or substances. It happens to people. It's worth knowing what those substances are, where you might encounter them, and what the relative risks are. It's too bad the simple idea of posting a sign doesn't adequately convey that information. You have to do some research.

Absolutely. But this is where the government steps in and ban the product or substance eg. Asbestos. It's pretty crazy to advertise everywhere that there are this and that chemical and have certain risks, when lay consumers have no ideas on the implication of those warnings. They just don't have the knowledge to interpret but to go on mass hysteria on the other extreme. If the toxicity is serious, then it should be banned. If the toxicity is not serious, then let it be. Empowering lay people on highly technical matters may sound noble but it may just create more potentially harm eg. Brexit referendum outcome.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Gadgetgeek » Wed 27 Feb, 2019 7:20 pm

wayno wrote:toluene has been used in insect repellent for a long time

And I thought the bugs in northern Canada were bad!
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Al M » Thu 28 Feb, 2019 2:58 am

For those who believe the Californian Proposition 65 warning system is the wrong way to go about it please explain how you think it should be done apart from ignoring it?

If you read the Proposition 65 explanation links I provided there is a scientific and logical risk calculation process Involved, not merely a broad brush sanitised laboratory risk rating. Instead it requires a risk calculation for the particular situation to meet a threshold point to decide whether to stick a warning sign/label up or not.

Proposition 65 also gives any member of the public the power or ability to ask for a warning notice if sufficient evidence can be provided with reference to those predetermined risk threshold points. If this is not done the member of the public may sue or refer the matter to government for enforcement. Similar laws exist in Western Aust environmental law for things like noise pollution where a member of the public who is affected may take their own legal action. However, this ability does not exist for all types of pollution, although general common nuisance or negligence law may still be used by the public.

So the long term affect of Propositon 65 is that if the land owner with the warning sign wants to remove it they must find a way to reduce the risk. Whether it takes many decades or less, there is eventual pressure to remove uneccessary chemicals or find safer alternatives and this gradually reduces the multitude of harmful agents. We start to live in an increasingly safer environment. I fail to see why is this not a good thing?

For those in the public that don’t currently understand, it still provides an opportunity to become aware of it and take action or ignore it. There is no other simple practical system that I can think of to warn a member of the public walking randomly on the street or purchasing a product.

In the general public and media there is significant concern about chemicals in the environment and what they may be doing to us, supported by high cancer rates and things like Proposition 65 are one way to start addressing the concerns.

In the carpark scenario things won’t change until car manufacturers improve engine technology and increasing electric and other alternatives are addressing that, whereas for toluene alternative chemicals used in camp matts one can be investigated and eventually found. Proposition 65 will have then achieved its purpose.

I have been visiting Japan every year for the last 15 years and this December noticed on the road that about 25% of new vehicles are now hybrid so change is occurring rapidly that will help reduce benzene from fuel emissions. Toyota’s latest affordable Hybrid Corolla ($30k) and Prius C ($27k) are game changers this year in Aust as they already are in Japan.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Orion » Thu 28 Feb, 2019 4:19 am

Al M wrote:For those who believe the Californian Proposition 65 warning system is the wrong way to go about it please explain how you think it should be done apart from ignoring it?


You have an interesting way of asking the question. The warnings are already largely ignored by the general public.

Perhaps you missed it but last year there was a ruling that coffee roasters and retailers were going to have to post notices. Fortunately reasonable minds prevailed in that case and coffee was given an exemption. But that wasn't before a number of the defendants agreed to pay settlements. The private organization that brought this suit was entitled to a share of the settlement, in addition to legal fees. That's why the suit was brought. It had nothing to do with protecting Californians from death though drinking coffee. It was just part of the mechanism of the law. That sort of abuse is not an isolated case.

On balance I think we'd be better off without the Proposition 65 warning requirement.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Al M » Fri 01 Mar, 2019 12:13 am

Orion wrote:
Al M wrote:For those who believe the Californian Proposition 65 warning system is the wrong way to go about it please explain how you think it should be done apart from ignoring it?


You have an interesting way of asking the question. The warnings are already largely ignored by the general public.

Perhaps you missed it but last year there was a ruling that coffee roasters and retailers were going to have to post notices. Fortunately reasonable minds prevailed in that case and coffee was given an exemption. But that wasn't before a number of the defendants agreed to pay settlements. The private organization that brought this suit was entitled to a share of the settlement, in addition to legal fees. That's why the suit was brought. It had nothing to do with protecting Californians from death though drinking coffee. It was just part of the mechanism of the law. That sort of abuse is not an isolated case.

On balance I think we'd be better off without the Proposition 65 warning requirement.



There are successes and excesses in application of Proposition 65. Having to many asbestos particles spewing out from a property and not warning families about it is not good either and should never be ignored while the coffee thing is another extreme but it was corrected. There are many articles for and against and many saying the balance is one of benefit in removing unnecessary chemicals surrounding us:

https://law.stanford.edu/2017/03/10/pro ... egulation/

https://digitalcommons.law.ggu.edu/cgi/ ... ntext=pubs

https://oehha.ca.gov/proposition-65/pre ... ies-cancer

https://www.accountablescience.com/wp-c ... Report.pdf

And

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018 ... op-65-law/
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Gadgetgeek » Fri 01 Mar, 2019 6:33 am

The flipside to this argument is that many chemicals in vape juice are GCS (generally considered safe) but they largely have only been tested for consumption, not inhalation after being atomized and heated. In fact the same chemical that is known to cause problems from microwave popcorn is available in vape juice, which would be the absolute worst way to ingest it.

Best intentions and a certain road, sometimes seem to be all we have.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Orion » Fri 01 Mar, 2019 12:47 pm

Al M wrote:There are successes and excesses in application of Proposition 65. Having to many asbestos particles spewing out from a property and not warning families about it is not good either and should never be ignored while the coffee thing is another extreme but it was corrected. There are many articles for and against and many saying the balance is one of benefit in removing unnecessary chemicals surrounding us:

https://law.stanford.edu/2017/03/10/pro ... egulation/

https://digitalcommons.law.ggu.edu/cgi/ ... ntext=pubs

https://oehha.ca.gov/proposition-65/pre ... ies-cancer

https://www.accountablescience.com/wp-c ... Report.pdf

And

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018 ... op-65-law/


An interesting set of links. Food for thought. It's a complicated subject and maybe my conclusion isn't the right one. Thanks for posting those.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Al M » Fri 01 Mar, 2019 10:40 pm

In one of the links apparently in response to Proposition 65 companies are not providing normal toxicity data in their new chemicals or materials so that the health risk calculation in Proposition 65 guidelines can not be done so it is harder for the public and users of chemicals and materials to find out if the item is safe or not. This is a really bad thing and created another set of problems in itself.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Orion » Sun 03 Mar, 2019 3:39 am

I went to buy some freshly roasted coffee beans at the local co-op market and noticed a sign that's probably been there for a while but, well, I just tend to ignore these signs. Even though it's not required this market decided to do us all the dubious favor of warning us about coffee anyway:


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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 04 Mar, 2019 12:59 am

Orion wrote:I went to buy some freshly roasted coffee beans at the local co-op market and noticed a sign that's probably been there for a while but, well, I just tend to ignore these signs. Even though it's not required this market decided to do us all the dubious favor of warning us about coffee anyway:

Case in point, just a silly situation. FDA won’t tell the consumer much either and the ultimate decision will still be with a lay person.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Orion » Mon 04 Mar, 2019 7:10 am

The warning states that coffee contains "chemicals" -- plural -- that cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Are there really others besides acrylamide? Or is the wording on the sign incorrect?

And the FDA doesn't merely fail to advise people to stop consuming coffee. They specifically point out that coffee is not associated with an increased risk of cancer; that evidence suggests that consumption of coffee may actually provide health benefits, including a decrease in risk for certain cancers.

I think this sign isn't just a case of being careful. I think it's misleading. It's a kind of lie.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby ribuck » Mon 04 Mar, 2019 7:34 am

Orion wrote:And the FDA doesn't merely fail to advise people to stop consuming coffee. They specifically point out that coffee is not associated with an increased risk of cancer; that evidence suggests that consumption of coffee may actually provide health benefits, including a decrease in risk for certain cancers.

In the same way, I'm fairly certain that the regular use of Thermarests is correlated with improved health.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Al M » Mon 04 Mar, 2019 5:19 pm

Wouldn’t get too concerned knit picking over minor things like coffee warnings and toluene in matts vs the overall message is that Propision 65 has got manufacturers doing things safer and major benefits like reducing ubiquitous and unnecessary amounts of lead material in fuels, consumer products like neoprene and plastic products close to skin contact (CD holders, neoprene and gloves etc), refer to link articles. The coffee anomally has been addressed with a regulation to stop people taking action over that. Any food burnt or charred like toast and meats etc are scientifically known to have increased cancer agents, any adult can deal that that either continue to eat it or don’t char or burn it, instead of 10 coffees try 5 daily if think or continue commenting.

Another thing to consider is that FDA only advises on singular items and incredients but not on combined or negative synergistic effects of many different materials when put together and cause potentai issues so Prop 65 can have an affect in reducing overall amounts so that combined cocktails are less likely that havnt been discovered. We still don’t have a full handle on all products around us and rather than wait for people to start having issues Prop 65 takes the precautionary approach. See here synergistic negative health affects of different materials https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2627851/

Sleeping on a Toulene impregnated matt is not by choice, any sleep over not sleeping is better, even sleeping on naturally occurring asbestos laden rocks is healthier than sleeping on northern Aust mudflats surrounded by salt crocs. If one day toulene is eliminated or substituted from thermarest matts that is one less thing to worry about, no brainer really however small and can only be good, so long as the product doesn’t fail prematurely.

If it took something like Prop 65 to reduce lead content in simple products like neoprene and gloves etc, where was manufactures duty of care, where were all the normal safety nets and assurances from naysayers.

Put it another way, if you think we have reached state of knowing exactly 100% what every hazardous material by themselves can do to us, we have quite a good handle on it but there are still many stones to turn, and with synergistic problems it is still largely unknown and there is always need to keep discovering.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby trekker76 » Mon 04 Mar, 2019 9:37 pm

It doesn't matter so much what is discovered its whether anyone makes use of it. There is a chequerboard approach to using dangerous chemicals in the world. Country A chooses 'XYZ' as good, but 'ABC' as bad. Country B chooses their list, all basically in order to have a list that both enables production for your country and also satisfy notions of duty of care. Look at Australia's terrible list of accepted chemicals for heavy industry and agricutlure. Some of the things we spray and allow into waterways are banned in half the civilized world. The government throws mileinials some reports on bacon and textile dyes in camping gear and they run around happy they are eliminating the real dangers :(
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Gadgetgeek » Tue 05 Mar, 2019 6:19 pm

And half of the banned chemicals were only banned because of outrage, not science. Its a messy thing.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Al M » Wed 06 Mar, 2019 12:07 am

trekker76 wrote:It doesn't matter so much what is discovered its whether anyone makes use of it. There is a chequerboard approach to using dangerous chemicals in the world. Country A chooses 'XYZ' as good, but 'ABC' as bad. Country B chooses their list, all basically in order to have a list that both enables production for your country and also satisfy notions of duty of care. Look at Australia's terrible list of accepted chemicals for heavy industry and agricutlure. Some of the things we spray and allow into waterways are banned in half the civilized world. The government throws mileinials some reports on bacon and textile dyes in camping gear and they run around happy they are eliminating the real dangers :(


Good points and demonstrates that Aust isn’t the worst place to be aware of such things but isnt very good either by a long shot. Despite this Aust is in the top 5 longest lived people in world, so not bad. If we can get a handle on skin cancer, lifestyle issues, obesity and skulling one too many maybe we can get to the top and brag about other ailments we never had before and then too old to read the warning signs by then :mrgreen:
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby trekker76 » Wed 06 Mar, 2019 6:48 pm

Good point Al, just remember its Australias oldest generation that is top 5 longest lived in the world. But they grew up in a vastly different chemical landscape to us, most of the things I referred to weren't invented for them. The rest of us, your and my generation don't know how long we are living to yet. Like I said above, ask us how we are placed in 2050 :D
Last edited by trekker76 on Thu 07 Mar, 2019 5:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby Neo » Wed 06 Mar, 2019 7:07 pm

I agree, sleeping on a Thermarest is likely to prolong your life! Associated activities to blame.

We as people have made and altered so many things it's no wonder the world is screwed up and we 'suffer' yet unexplained afflictions.

I'm all for greater knowledge and public awareness.

One can be oblivious or discerning, that's evolution ;)
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Re: Equipment: Cancer/birth defects scare.. what the..

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 07 Mar, 2019 8:55 am

Neo wrote:I'm all for greater knowledge and public awareness.

One can be oblivious or discerning, that's evolution ;)

All good as long as the recipient knows what to do with that information and can lead to sensible choices, or it’s meaningless. The current anti-vax is case in point, a case where information given to the lay, whilst it’s all in the name of transparency and informed decision, but led to poor decisions due to a lack of perspective and professional knowledge. This is what the govt is for, to come out with policies that balances information and act where needed based on expertise.


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