Hilleberg Tents.

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Hilleberg Tents.

Postby markg » Tue 22 Apr, 2014 6:18 pm

Hello everyone, new to this site. Am enjoying it very much around here. Must say, I love reading the articles of trips, the photos are fantastic, and there is a ton of interesting an informative information to boot. I am looking for a new tent since my old North Face gave up the ghost a little while ago. I did consider buying a new VE25 but have since discovered the Hillebergs. To be frank I had never heard of them, but from what I have read and seen they seem to be a very good thing, and I have yet to read a negative report on them bar the cost. Now that my daughter is getting a bit older my wife and I hope to get her out on some overnight treks around the snowie mtns and a few other places as well as flyfishing trips around that way. We are also planning on taking a couple of guided trips there in winter to gain a bit of experience in that kind of thing. We have narrowed down our choices to the Tarra and the Saivo. Both are a bit weighty , but we figured we could divvy up and share the load. Some trips will be car camping and some backpacking. Is anyone using either of these tents at the moment? and if so what are their impressions on them. Some friends of mine feel that they are a bit more than what we might need . I was about to order the VE25, it actually weighs in more than the Saivo. Any feed back would be greatly appreciated. Cheers mark.
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Hilleberg Tents.

Postby RonK » Tue 22 Apr, 2014 9:59 pm

I have a Soulo, and can attest to the Hilleberg qualities. Yours are unusual choices though, and I don't know of anyone else who has gone that way. Common choices would be the Allak and Staika or even the Nallo/Nallo GT.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Ellobuddha » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 12:01 am

Ive got an Allak and a Jannu. Both excellent tents.

The Allak is more versatile given the two door/dual vestibule design. It is more friendly in warmer conditions given the cross ventilation.

The Jannu is sensational. Bulletproof and plenty of room inside. The vestibule is a very low angle and I wouldnt cook in it with anything onther that a jetboil given the lack of room. Plenty enough for wet boots, packs etc. Is bigger inside than the Allak but not much. Benefit of the Allak is being able to stash packs etc on the windward side and use the lee side for cooking etc.

The Jannu is basically the same as the Tarra except the Tarra has two vestibules. The Tarra may be a "black label" I think which uses the Kerlon 1800 instead of 1200 fabric. The 1200 seems ample for all but the most brutal conditions.

You can double pole most models for extra stength if you need it though it would be extremely rare I would think.

The Staika is the stronger slightly bigger (and heavier) version of the Allak with opposed doors too from memory.

From the look of your post you seem to be looking at a 3 person or bigger. Is that right?

My friends have a Kaitum 3 GT? and love it. I dont really have any first hand knowledge of the bigger models that that.

Give John at Mountain Adventure Centre Jindabyne a ring. Really nice guy and has a fair few models in stock that you can get your hands on to check out.

They are really well made tents. They are reasonably heavy but you feel very safe in them. As far as splitting the weight carrying them though, someone will have to take the lions share, as the outer and inner are normally left connected. This is great for rigging in rain, snow so the inner doesnt get wet. That means someone will cart 2-4kgs of tent and someone gets the poles and pegs (depending on the model)

Im sure you wont be dissapointed.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby DannyS » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 3:45 pm

If you swing towards a Jannu I have one for sale on the forum.

Cheers

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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby nq111 » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 4:53 pm

I have a Tarra. Nice tent and really shines setting up and taking down in bad conditions. Overkill 99% of the time but doubles as my security blanket!

I have also owned a North Face Mountain 25. Really is a good tent and perhaps a fraction more liveable than the Tarra. And a very, very strong tent as well. A fraction heavier though, won't last as long and a b*&$% to set up in high winds.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby andrewa » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 7:11 pm

Just BTW, my Nallo 3GT is not really big enough for 3....maybe 2 adults and smaller child, but 3 adults is very close....as in, the ones in the outside will be against the edge of the tent, and suffer from condensation issues.

I've got the 1200 fabric weight version....no probs. Had a night on Bogong last winter in 80-90 kph winds. It flapped around a fair bit, even though pegged taughtly, but stayed together. Fabric stretches when wet, like silinylon. In snow, it doesn't shed as well as a geodesic dome. My ideal tent would be a 4lb (or lighter) cuben geodesic dome with twin vestibules, both with hoops.....haven't found it yet, but also, haven't been looking.

You've entered "Pandora's box"!

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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby ninjapuppet » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 8:25 pm

Had my Jannu up in Jagungal over the wekeend. Heaps of condensation dripping all over the outer, but the inner walls were bone dry!
God I love double skin tents during times like this

however the bathtub floor was non breathable, and was soaking wet. the floors go up about 15cm and if anything touched them, it would get soaked too.
I really dont know any way around this, other than wiping it down, but you cant go on doing this all night long. Didnt have my cuben/eVent bivy with me as i thought it was pointless to bring along with a double walled tent.

A tarra is 2 man while Saivo is 3 man.
Saivo quality is better than a VE25 and much easier to set up.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby icefest » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 8:38 pm

A cuben Saivo would be absolutely magnificent. 8)
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby andrewa » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 9:10 pm

MYO version mate! There's plenty of cuben around.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby markg » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 9:57 pm

Thank you all for your input. I did speak to John and Josh at Mountain outdoor centre in Jindy and have ordered the Saivo. Must say the wet floor doesn't sound too good though, is there anyway around it? I figured the tent touching the ground at the edges would eliminate the chance of this, or am I wrong? Yes I was looking for a 3 man tent. Also, if it was only two in it the extra space would be a bit of luxury. I also ordered a footprint for it. My north face would leak a bit in the floor area too , but it was getting on a bit though and I think the coating was on it's last legs. I still have an old NF west wind that I took out of it's bag and it felt kind of sticky like the 23 I am giving it a good airing, I think it's had it too. I would like to get something along the lines of a Soulo or perhaps a tarp tent for backpacking when it only needs to fit one and has to be light, some of those tarp tents really look the goods and seem to be very functional. Now we need to get ourselves some new sleeping bags, and some other items , geez, a lot of this stuff is very expensive. I thought fishing was a dear hobby. Thanks again everyone, hope you don't mind if I ask some more advice regarding the SBs and the rest. Cheers.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby DannyS » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 12:03 am

ninjapuppet wrote:Had my Jannu up in Jagungal over the wekeend. Heaps of condensation dripping all over the outer, but the inner walls were bone dry!
God I love double skin tents during times like this

however the bathtub floor was non breathable, and was soaking wet. the floors go up about 15cm and if anything touched them, it would get soaked too.
I really dont know any way around this, other than wiping it down, but you cant go on doing this all night long. Didnt have my cuben/eVent bivy with me as i thought it was pointless to bring along with a double walled tent.

A tarra is 2 man while Saivo is 3 man.
Saivo quality is better than a VE25 and much easier to set up.

Was the base of the floor wet or just the sides? Were you using a footprint?
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby north-north-west » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 7:32 am

andrewa wrote: My ideal tent would be a 4lb (or lighter) cuben geodesic dome with twin vestibules, both with hoops.....haven't found it yet, but also, haven't been looking.

... and integral pitch, for about $200. If you ever find it, let me know. :wink:
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby ninjapuppet » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 8:20 am

DannyS wrote:Was the base of the floor wet or just the sides? Were you using a footprint?


The floor wasnt leaking, it was just condensation build up on the sides of the tub floors, which every tent should have. its just like how condensation builds up on the poles when the tent poles are inside the tent.

i generally dont use footprints with hillebergs. They're plenty tough if you choose your campsite well.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby RonK » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 9:55 am

Use the footprint. It will reduce condensation. Permanently attached to my Soulo. Never had a wet floor, even in EnZed in spring.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Scottyk » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 10:24 am

Wet sides of a bathtub floor have very little to do with different tent designs.
The cold air flows under the tent fly and up between the inner and outer as is gets heated by the occupants of the tent. Because the floor material is quite thick it is cold and the moisture from the people in the tent condenses there. The more people in the tent the more convective flow you get and the more moisture that is available. I have always seen it on tents when 2 or more people are in them.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby DannyS » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 10:40 am

RonK wrote:Use the footprint. It will reduce condensation. Permanently attached to my Soulo. Never had a wet floor, even in EnZed in spring.

Yeah I think what RonK says is right, it would definitely reduce the convective process described by Scottyk.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Orion » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 11:14 am

DannyS wrote:
RonK wrote:Use the footprint. It will reduce condensation. Permanently attached to my Soulo. Never had a wet floor, even in EnZed in spring.

Yeah I think what RonK says is right, it would definitely reduce the convective process described by Scottyk.


I don't understand. Warm, moist people inside and a non-permeable fabric that's cold --> condensation and eventual pooling of water. Add a groundsheet and what changes?
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Scottyk » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 11:16 am

foot print would make no difference
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby DannyS » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 11:52 am

Scottyk wrote:foot print would make no difference

I can't say I have any great knowledge on these things, but I have had a night in the Jannu with two people inside. Before we even got into the tent the humidity was so high that everything had a coating of moisture on it, the next morning the fly was saturated inside and out but the inner was bone dry including the floor side walls and base. The footprint for the Jannu covers the entire base of the outer fly, wouldn't that restrict any dampness from the ground and outside atmosphere circulating between the inner and outer walls?
When you say footprint won't make a difference, is this from your own experience? Not having a go but would like to know if your statement is based on experience or theory?
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby DannyS » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 11:58 am

Orion wrote:
DannyS wrote:
RonK wrote:Use the footprint. It will reduce condensation. Permanently attached to my Soulo. Never had a wet floor, even in EnZed in spring.

Yeah I think what RonK says is right, it would definitely reduce the convective process described by Scottyk.


I don't understand. Warm, moist people inside and a non-permeable fabric that's cold --> condensation and eventual pooling of water. Add a groundsheet and what changes?

As I said previously I know very little of these things, but the inner tent fabric is permeable, the outer tent fabric is cold so you would expect condensation to form on that surface, not the inner, or not?
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Scottyk » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 12:13 pm

Everyone has anecdotal evidence of "this time when I was here and the weather was this....."
Although the observations made are valid they are only valid for that very specific set of circumstances. It helps to think a little broader.

If the foot print sealed any gap between the tent fly and the ground then it would help to stop it from happening, yes. But that would have to be a very good seal, like say a zipper with a flap behind it. if there was even a 5mm average gap then the air will get in and the convention process will start and continue. Remember that the moisture is not coming from outside the ten but inside, its only the cold air circulating past then tent bathtub wall that lets it condensate on the sides.

So to stop it you will have to stop this this air moving past the wall. Most tents are designed with this as a feature as it lessens the condensation from forming on the inside of the tent fly, that's why Hilleberg have the excellent vents at the top. If you close this all up the the humidity level rises from your own moisture vapour, rather than venting out the top with the vent and convective flow the tent fly will be nice and cold and that's where it will condense and you will wake up with drips all over you.
So have a conducted controlled experiments of a tent with or without a foot print corresponding with moisture levels on the inside of bathtub floors? No
Do I need to to understand the processes at play? No
:)
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Ellobuddha » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 12:17 pm

Time for some more photos
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby DannyS » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 12:25 pm

Scottyk wrote:Everyone has anecdotal evidence of "this time when I was here and the weather was this....."
Although the observations made are valid they are only valid for that very specific set of circumstances. It helps to think a little broader.

If the foot print sealed any gap between the tent fly and the ground then it would help to stop it from happening, yes. But that would have to be a very good seal, like say a zipper with a flap behind it. if there was even a 5mm average gap then the air will get in and the convention process will start and continue. Remember that the moisture is not coming from outside the ten but inside, its only the cold air circulating past then tent bathtub wall that lets it condensate on the sides.

So to stop it you will have to stop this this air moving past the wall. Most tents are designed with this as a feature as it lessens the condensation from forming on the inside of the tent fly, that's why Hilleberg have the excellent vents at the top. If you close this all up the the humidity level rises from your own moisture vapour, rather than venting out the top with the vent and convective flow the tent fly will be nice and cold and that's where it will condense and you will wake up with drips all over you.
So have a conducted controlled experiments of a tent with or without a foot print corresponding with moisture levels on the inside of bathtub floors? No
Do I need to to understand the processes at play? No
:)

:lol: Thank you Scottyk :lol:
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby RonK » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 6:28 pm

Scottyk wrote:If the foot print sealed any gap between the tent fly and the ground then it would help to stop it from happening, yes.

The subject of discussion is Hilleberg 4-season tents. The fly reaches all the way to the ground, as can be seen in photos posted above - there is no air gap, and air does not enter under the fly. That after all is the purpose and design of a 4-season tent. In warmer weather I've sometimes resorted to putting items such as nalgene bottles under the fly hem of my Soulo to allow a little more ventilation.

Using a footprint covers the ground under the fly and prevents humidity rising from damp earth or vegetation - definitely helps to reduce condensation, as I observed when once at a nice grassy spot I failed to use my footprint. As mentioned I leave it permanently attached now.

In fact, most condensation comes from the water vapour exhaled by the occupants, hence more bodies are likely to produce more condensation. It doesn't help if you have damp and sweaty clothing, wet boots, socks or gear in the vestibules either.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Ellobuddha » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 6:56 pm

I always pitch the rear of my Jannu into the wind. There are two corner peg points and one centre on the rear. I use a MSR groundhog peg on the middle point that is pitched high. This way the outer is up off the ground and allows some air flow through. I found this helps with condensation - in the situations I've found. I think it helps with the venturi effect with the excellent vents on the hillebergs. This airflow effect works the same as sought after in a number of mid type shelters with their top vent. Obviously this is in wet/ misty conditions, not dry cold snow.

I think this may also be the design intention of the Rogen with its raised outer fly?

My opinion only - no flaming
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby nq111 » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 8:05 pm

RonK wrote:
Scottyk wrote:Using a footprint covers the ground under the fly and prevents humidity rising from damp earth or vegetation - definitely helps to reduce condensation, as I observed when once at a nice grassy spot I failed to use my footprint. As mentioned I leave it permanently attached now.


Yeah, fire the stove up in the vestibule the tent warms up nicely and the amount of water that steams up from the ground and wet grass seems to be considerable.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Scottyk » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 10:09 pm

RonK wrote:
Scottyk wrote:If the foot print sealed any gap between the tent fly and the ground then it would help to stop it from happening, yes.

The subject of discussion is Hilleberg 4-season tents. The fly reaches all the way to the ground, as can be seen in photos posted above - there is no air gap, and air does not enter under the fly. That after all is the purpose and design of a 4-season tent. In warmer weather I've sometimes resorted to putting items such as nalgene bottles under the fly hem of my Soulo to allow a little more ventilation.

Using a footprint covers the ground under the fly and prevents humidity rising from damp earth or vegetation - definitely helps to reduce condensation, as I observed when once at a nice grassy spot I failed to use my footprint. As mentioned I leave it permanently attached now.

In fact, most condensation comes from the water vapour exhaled by the occupants, hence more bodies are likely to produce more condensation. It doesn't help if you have damp and sweaty clothing, wet boots, socks or gear in the vestibules either.


So the OP was referring to water gathering on the inside of the bathtub floor walls.

Here is the full paragraph you used from my post and it makes a bit more sense than the one sentence you chose.

"If the foot print sealed any gap between the tent fly and the ground then it would help to stop it from happening, yes. But that would have to be a very good seal, like say a zipper with a flap behind it. if there was even a 5mm average gap then the air will get in and the convention process will start and continue. Remember that the moisture is not coming from outside the ten but inside, its only the cold air circulating past then tent bathtub wall that lets it condensate on the sides. "

That fact that the tent fly comes to the ground will make very little difference to the process I have described. The ground/fly interface is not a air tight seal therefore as the air warms between the fly and tent inner it will rise, this will create a lower pressure at the bottom of the gap and the air will come in through the gaps under the fly. The air does come under the fly, air is very thin stuff and a grass to tent fly is no seal at all. You say there is no air gap, I assure you that there is enough for circulation to occur.
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Scottyk » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 10:11 pm

nq111 wrote:
RonK wrote:
Scottyk wrote:Using a footprint covers the ground under the fly and prevents humidity rising from damp earth or vegetation - definitely helps to reduce condensation, as I observed when once at a nice grassy spot I failed to use my footprint. As mentioned I leave it permanently attached now.


Yeah, fire the stove up in the vestibule the tent warms up nicely and the amount of water that steams up from the ground and wet grass seems to be considerable.

that's not my quote!
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby icefest » Fri 25 Apr, 2014 1:17 am

Regarding the discussion of ventilation, ground sheets and condensation, Travis22 posted this link over at http://bushwalk.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6927
http://windowoutdoors.com/WindowOutdoor ... iation.htm

Tl;DR
"Use a ground cloth to reduce moisture flux from the ground" (Ground sheets decrease internal humidity)
"Convection heat transfer works best when the wind blows. On a windy night the rate of convection heat transfer is high and most objects stay close to air temperature. On calm nights convection is less important and objects can cool, by net loss of radiation, well below the air temperature." 
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Re: Hilleberg Tents.

Postby Orion » Fri 25 Apr, 2014 3:49 am

That makes sense. But I suspect it is complicated and wouldn't work all the time.

It's a moot point for me in any case as I never use a foot print in the bush (to save weight) and always use one when car camping (to preserve the floor). We get water pooling from condensation on the sides of the bathtub floor sometimes even when car camping with a ground sheet under the tent.

From Hilleberg's website:

"Available for all models except the Atlas, these tough ground
sheets help both to protect your tent’s floor from abrasion and
to keep ground moisture from rising in the vestibule."
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