This is no community.

[GPSGuided]

I would like all the posts I've made here removed.

You can't be serious! Do you know how much work that is? Now, I wish I could un-say a bunch of things in my life time but those words have bolted...

[Mountain Rocket]

I have been following this thread closely (I am avoiding posting - I don't want to get in the way.)
I want to thank everyone for making a great effort to keep this thread friendly.

Hey Matt,

As someone who feels very uncomfortable about this whole mess I find it quite odd that a post quite clearly telling Colin to 'f%#k off' is tolerated earlier in this thread. I know that rule 25 prevents me talking about moderation action but in this case it is the moderation in-action that worries me.

From past experiences in this sub-forum I certainly feel there is a bad case favouritism towards some of the older members here [join time, not necessarily age], which is perhaps letting them get away with more than they should. I can understand this on one level but on another it is quite damaging to the community as a whole as new members are alienated.

I also strongly agree with the idea of clarifying when a staff member(??) is posting in an official role or as a member. No intended offence to Nuts but I personally think he can blur the line a bit at times.

Anyway it is late and I am tired so I am not going to say any more tonight.

[wildwalks]

Hi Robert

As someone who feels very uncomfortable about this whole mess I find it quite odd that a post quite clearly telling Colin to 'f%#k off' is tolerated earlier in this thread. I know that rule 25 prevents me talking about moderation action but in this case it is the moderation in-action that worries me.

Thanks you. I agree I was very slow responding to the report - there was a significant back log and I was focused on trying to clear higher priority issues - this one slipped my radar. I have now closed the report and made a moderation decision. Thanks for raising the issue - I am sorry for any grief that my slow response has caused.

From past experiences in this sub-forum I certainly feel there is a bad case favouritism towards some of the older members here [join time, not necessarily age], which is perhaps letting them get away with more than they should. I can understand this on one level but on another it is quite damaging to the community as a whole as new members are alienated.

I am sorry if this is the case. I can assure you the length of membership or number of posts a member has made does not effect my moderation. This is not 100% true I do tend to be more lenient on new members as it can take a little while to find your feet. But members with history should be clear on the rules. I will raise the issue with the mods and make sure we are more conscious of this in the future.

thanks again

Matt Acting in role as siteadmin

[wayno]

i get the feeling the moderation can be a bit random, i've seen some things sanctioned at times that other times sail through without issue, i've reported the odd issue i thought was against the rules and it gets closed with no explanation.

[Nuts]

It comes down to trust, if we don't have it someone is going to loose out.

I'm not really sure i want to be involved in much more of this just now, maybe in a few days time. As SoB says, nothing good comes of it. There are quite simple explanations that might help with understanding moderation, so long as anybody would then read them they might be worth continued effort and repetition.

How about these:

* The 'notify poster of report outcome' - the button doesn't do anything- we don't get anything from that tickbox (it has been mentioned as a problem). Ether way, even then, we may not act on your report.. we'll likely acknowledge, surely people don't expect a reply when the point out a post in the wrong section? (not that it hasn't helped and made things easier..)

* None of us, not even organised between us could possibly read everything looking for people flying close to the flame.

* Any member can report any other member. That includes me! That's right- if something is of concern, report the mods!, it's been said before.. It's actually recently happened

* All reports (besides the mundane post moves etc) are opened in a subsection of the moderation forum.. we all see them, we all ask each other for input, we all take advice.

I'm not sure I can get further than practicalities of moderation or want too. Subjective discussion would quickly lead to examples and that can't be good. Let's just say for now that I think the balance is as Matt pointed out- more leeway given to newer members (if anything). RH, you may have noticed the absence of some of the sites 'oldest' members recently... yep 'ban-hammer'..

Sorry but an imbalance is just not the way things are, any occasion where this may seem so there is very likely more going on (as matt points out in his example).

I'm happy to discuss my personal moderation style.. sometime, still prefer off the forum but that's ok by me.
Perhaps for now, sorry if it seems dismissive, If you don't see blue I don't mean blue..
And sorry if this isn't calming but I do notice that the quickest to vent on moderation topics are those that have been moderated. I understand the frustration.. but really.. I sometimes don't get how people think they can get away with conclusions based on (only ever having) half the details..

Still- As i'm sure are (most of) the others- All ears/eyes, I doubt anything will be resolved but if it can be kept a conversation (discussing moderation in general) then no harm done I guess, maybe it will help forum 'locals'.

[matagi]

I belong to a number of forums and have never in my life been moderated anywhere except on this site - and that was as "collateral damage".

From my point of view, the moderating on this site can appear quite capricious at times.

[Nuts]

I should say that I agree, it could appear capricious. Iv'e no doubt it is at times. Surely we deserve some, given the challenge
Another option, rather than getting messy and repetitive here, for moderation issues that head towards any particular member/moderator would be to give a bit more explanation in a pm addressed to the moderators (as a group).. (just add them to the message member box)?

[biggbird]

I think most moderators would agree that I have saddled my high horse with lance and charged at a few windmills in my time.

This made me laugh, thanks Ent!

[walkinTas]

There have already been some great comments made in the above discussion. If I'm allowed to comment on moderation without upsetting too many people, I would make a couple of observations.

Firstly, if you are concerned about the wording of any rule, or if you think the interpretation is a little 'capricious', then the best approach is to discuss the rule(s). That way you can find out what the moderators think about the rule(s). Considered discussion is always better than a prolonged rant.

Secondly, the rules are not there simply to serve the moderators, they are there to protect the members. This includes the much maligned Rule 25. Without this rule there would be many topics with a lot of off-topic discussion after every moderation, and there would potentially be members named/accused/abused in those discussions. So Rule 25 just asks you to use the PM system if you wish to be specific about a moderation issue, or to use this forum ("Forum & Site") if you are able to discuss the problem in a general and open way.

As for the question of this site being a community to which members can contribute, I would say it is definitely a community and members have had a strong say in how this forum was built. The current layout was developed through open discussion. The logo was contributed by a member. All of the sub-topic where developed from suggestions by members. The photo competition was started as a suggestion from a member, and it has been refined many times by open discussion. The wiki and the blog were started in response to member's requests. Private forums were started in response to member's requests. The rules have been openly discussed and modified a number of times in response to concerns raised by members. ....there are many other examples. Every member is able to contribute to any public discussion on this site.

[Bush-Ranger]

While I can't comment on what Jesus might think of kittens, I do know that I like cats........ But I couldn't eat a whole one !

Dont fret Turfa! They freeze okay

[GD4Up]

An interesting discourse to fill a few minutes but does it fit into the 'who cares' basket? A community is a group of people with a commonality - whether it be a common interest, location or something else. It is fair to call this site a community by virtue of the common interests in bushwalking. We should all remember though that the best part of being in a free community is that if the standards of behaviour or mores within the community are so disagreeable or abhorrent you can leave and join another community. The need for respect is however paramount and that should be shown not only in the moderators' decision but also in whatever the initial dispute was about.

[Drifting]

I'm not going to bother reading any of this, but I will say that in one way or the other I've a participating member of BWA for longer than pretty much anyone on here nowadays, other than Walkintas, Corvus and Tasadam, and of course Nik. I'm sure there's others, so forgive me if I left you out. What saddens me about this "community" is the very large number of people who do not come here any longer, or who, like me, rarely or ever post. Some of my posts from a former incarnation, as The Camera Poser, are still alive and running, though I quit this forum under that name a long, long time ago, and only came back under Drifting after a long period of disenchantment. I am safe to say that I am an "Old Timer." (Joined in the end of 2007 or very beginning of 2008) And while I did eventually come back, I in no way feel like I am part of community here, and I rarely if ever post anything, due to the low level of personal respect shown to people by a few, highly audible members of this forum.

But I'm only a small part of the crowd that came here in the early days. And while I came back, albeit in a highly limited manner, so many of the members who used to be here, valuable, experienced, enthusiastic members, have quit and not come back, because of the very same reasons.

So is it a community? Sure it is. Is it a happy, healthy community? Not by my standards. My wife runs a very happy and prosperous net community, and her forum has none of the issues that BWA suffers from. There, everyone treats each other with respect, or else, and they are all happier for it. Here, respect is a bit more scarce, and many members are clearly not happy. At the end of the day, I could show some of the threads on the forum to my Year 7 class, and they'd think the level of disrespect was shocking. If they get it, why can't everyone on here?

I guess the really disappointing thing for me is to think back to the excitement I felt when I first joined BWT (pre BWA), a vibrant community of like-minded individuals. Even back then the work that Nik and Adam put into the site was clearly evident. Now, that vibrant community is all but gone, and the efforts of Nik, Adam, and so many others, have provided a vehicle for a significantly vocal minority to spread causticity and unhappiness, to the detriment of the whole. I find that very upsetting, because I know very well how hard the moderators and administrators have worked on this site, and at what personal sacrifice they have maintained the volumes of invaluable information stored here. To see those people who put so much into this site, who have given us all so much, be constantly pushed, tested, criticized and subverted by the very people whom they are freely and without charge serving is morally repugnant to me.

So, if anyone has bothered reading this, let me end my rant by saying that the only people who are impressed by jerks are jerks. Don't be a jerk.

[icefest]

Wow, I've finally got around to reading this entire thread.

My thoughts:

There is a lot of criticism of the current ruleset. (not just by simonm) Could those people rewrite the rules in a way that fixes the issues that they have with them?
Then, instead of everyone beating around the bush (and beating the dead horse), we can see exactly what will get us out of this rut. (excuse the pun)

Secondly, regarding moderation. Are there any written guidelines for the moderators to follow? Is there any plan for these to be made and then be made publicly visible? Then there is a clear ruleset to to match against for malpractice.

TL;DR please rewrite and post rules you have a problem with, display mod guidelines on website.

[ILUVSWTAS]

I agree with Drifting, the place went downhill since we let the mainlanders join.

[Nuts]

Picture Martians giggling at us and our foibles

I don't really want to take anything away from Drifting's post, very valid point of view. At the same time I see more to this picture.
I browse a couple of forums, there are many reasons people leave.. For a forum covering so much ground (under the loose-ish theme of bushwalking) it seems to me we don't have any problems particularly unique. Those we have can seem reasonably tame by comparison.

Personally, even though it sometimes takes (me) forever to think of more pleasant words with more than four letters.. other times er..issues get a little weird.. I'd rather not permanently ban anyone. Especially those who obviously care on some level.. even if they wont admit it..

Moderators are expected to administer the rules (above) icefest. There are guidelines in the mod section based on examples. Being amongst such intelligent company, with in mind to try to keep people on the site does seem to lead to occasional imbalance and what may seem dealt with in ways not directly transferable from a rule set. Things might change, we might (or at least I might ) be forced towards black and white, less colour.. do we really want that.. people excommunicated by the letter of the law. Doesn't motivate me.. but must admit it would be easier many times. Definitely less time consuming.

It's a real shame that your friends have been leaving based on the conversations here Drifting.. I'm sure that the mods/admin are open to communications from those people (this may have happened before my time). People I know that don't post often do mention that they baulk at all the drama.. I suspect it's just as often cause they got what they wanted, said what they had to say.. don't need the sorts of info that an open forum can offer.. life moves on.. many reasons.

Just a member post, my thoughts. I don't see a lot of feasible alternative unless we get heavy(er) on the bans?.. This may happen, maybe not, but i'm sure we, via a group message or Matt privately (if desired) could only benefit from suggestions.

It won't be me permanently.. or even very often.. banning people (unless things get unbearable or everything is exhausted but contempt) but i'm sure there are other members here that would take up that whip..

That said, some members are probably close to the edge.. at least, given the effort over the years, they only have themselves to blame if they are banned.

It might be an independence/freedom or even passion thing.. coupled with a tedious way to communicate/ need to be 'heard'. I would never have though bushwalkers could be such a tough crowd

[FatCanyoner]

I think people come and go, or simple get active or sit back, based on a lot of reasons. Some of the debates that excite you early on will become tedious by the tenth reinvention. Some of the personality clashes take time to nag away at you. Sometimes just the repetition of posts. And of course we all have personal stuff in our own lives -- work, family, shifting interests -- that will impact on engagement.
Personally, I've gone a little cold on online forums entirely in the last few months, and as a result I've drastically withdrawn from involvement here. For me, it's less about rudeness or other things that can be moderated for (I'm probably guilty of it at times!) but more just a disinterest in having the same debates and discussions over and over. I'm far too busy with life to engage. Of course, what we call bushwalking is also really individual. This site draws everyone from people doing daywalks on tourist tracks to overseas mountaineering adventures. The styles, ethics, gear, practices, interests etc vary greatly. It's impossible for such a broad church to be completely interesting to everyone.
So what's my point? Well, people will come and go. People will go through spurts of activity and times of decline. Some will happily lurk in the background forever. None of that is unusual. None of that is a problem. A forum like this will be forever shifting. It will never be a traditional community, made up of the same people for a long period of time, but it will be a fluid resource that people come and go to. It'll inspire and educate outsiders. And it'll provide a place to go and have the occasional debate, discussion, argument, disagreement etc. After all, bushwalkers come from every background and walk of life. It's no surprise we'll rub each other up the wrong way from time to time!
Just my two cents worth...

[GPSGuided]

+1 on FC's come and go observation. Secondly, certain rules are needed for certain cohort of forumites to make it work, these are interrelated.

[Drifting]

We are all human, and people do come and go. Moderation must be done judiciously, and by its nature will never make everyone happy. I don't disagree with any of those comments (other than the mainlander one), but nonetheless a lot of people have left, some old hands who have forsaken the site due to the negativity. This is pretty well known to a lot of users. But whether that is okay or not really rests on the shoulders of the owner and operators.

I just think a bit of basic respect would go far around here.

[ILUVSWTAS]

That said, some members are probably close to the edge.. at least, given the effort over the years, they only have themselves to blame if they are banned.

Excellent post Nuts and I agree wholeheartedly.

Interestingly enough though , weren't you on 2 warning and 1 ban away from a permanent ban before your appointment to Moderator?

[Nuts]

Something like that. I got a warning for a nazi comment and I think the second time for commenting on a photo of a phalic object.
ok. so.... that secret is out and I'm outa small talk, do you have a point?

[tibboh]

you guys love each other really......don't you?

[corvus]

We are all human, and people do come and go. Moderation must be done judiciously, and by its nature will never make everyone happy. I don't disagree with any of those comments (other than the mainlander one), but nonetheless a lot of people have left, some old hands who have forsaken the site due to the negativity. " But whether that is okay or not really rests on the shoulders of the owner and operators.

I just think a bit of basic respect would go far around here.

Drifting ,
You opened your recent repartee with this "I'm not going to bother reading any of this," yet go on to renew an old post and you also state that "some old hands who have forsaken the site due to the negativity" which you say, " This is pretty well known to a lot of users." do you have proof ?? I am a long term user and I really suspect most of those who no longer contribute have actually run out of things to offer or ask rather than what you suggest, yes I have been at times personally been profane in my comments ( and been modded for it even using s*&^%$#a) however I tend at times to occasionally do like many I suspect use the supposed profane vernacular in day to day speech , I indeed do not disrespect anyone and as I have previously stated "we are all Jock Tamson's Bairns" IMHO.

With regards to respect I feel that your comparative reference to Grade 7 students was just a bit cheeky
corvus

[Drifting]

You may think that was cheeky Corvus, but it's also true. Very true, whether you like it or not. It wasn't meant as a joke, but on a real-world reflection on the lack of respect shown by a minority of members on this forum.

I don't need to read the whole thread Corvus, I've been on here for nearly as long as you- don't you think I know what has happened on here?

I'm not interested in playing proof games anyhow. If you don't like what I say, file it away in the circular cabinet. I've kept my mouth shut for a long, long time on this forum, and I know I should have continued to do so, but then a guy gets tired of seeing people play innocent when they know well that they aren't, especially when this damages a community resource that a lot of people have been involved in creating. But yes, I've had several conversations with former members who have quit, or people who are still members but have taken a step back from BWA. Real world chats, and online ones as well. I don't just pull my statements out of the ether. Anyhow, if it wasn't such a problem, why does everyone think the Admin and Moderators spend so much time trying to ride shotgun on the site? Do the objectors really think they (the admin/mods) have nothing better to do than play Romper Room? Corvus, you and I have been on here too long to deny there's a problem with respect on here.

As I see it, the Admins and mods have tried very hard to keep things on an even keel, paying attention to the widely diverse audience of the forum. While some members may not think they are being offensive to others, the fact is that they are, and that means that those who are offended are alienated from the site. Now, that might not matter to those who are doing the offending, but it does to a lot of people, and it should. And the response by some members, juvenile, schoolyard behavior such as using avatars that are obviously meant to look like genitals, as well as innumerable goading comments towards both sensitive members and admin/moderators, is clearly inflammatory, disrespectful of both the people who run this forum and those who wish to use it, and the victims of goading.

Let's call a spade a spade, and quit jerking around. These people know what they are doing. They continually buck the rules, push the system, and then cry foul when anyone tries to rein them in, hiding behind censorship and twisting the forum rules. Jailhouse lawyers.

And on that note, who the heck ever told you people a forum is a Democracy? You have absolutely zero rights when it comes to the running of this forum, beyond the bare minimums imposed by the laws of intellectual property and defamation. Arguing about rules and fairness has absolutely no validity whatsoever. The owners of this site are the absolute owners, and they can make, alter, interpret, break or void the rules in any manner they see fit. That's why they own it. Any rights you may think you have are limited by the courtesy of the owners, who allow you here at their complete discretion. In other word, you are their guests. And to be honest, if guests in my home acted the way a lot of people on here do, I'd have your butts out the door so fast you wouldn't know what hit you. And if the ejected person didn't like it, they could go find somewhere else to play troll. In other words, stop sniping at them and open your own forum if this one is too G rated for you.

Anyhow, I'm really not interested in continuing this conversation. I've said my piece, and if people don't like it, they know what they can do with it (referring to the circular filing bin, of course).

[andrewbish]

Wow, I've finally got around to reading this entire thread.

My thoughts:

There is a lot of criticism of the current ruleset. (not just by simonm) Could those people rewrite the rules in a way that fixes the issues that they have with them?
Then, instead of everyone beating around the bush (and beating the dead horse), we can see exactly what will get us out of this rut. (excuse the pun)

Secondly, regarding moderation. Are there any written guidelines for the moderators to follow? Is there any plan for these to be made and then be made publicly visible? Then there is a clear ruleset to to match against for malpractice.

TL;DR please rewrite and post rules you have a problem with, display mod guidelines on website.

Good points, Icefest. I agree with the principle that if you see something that isn't right and you feel strongly about it, then you ought to pitch in yourself to fix it. I also think we need to have sufficient rules to constrain those that are unable to self-regulate in relation to the usual social rules of engagement. And sometimes, like when encountering abusive parents at the junior football game, we members have to be prepared to say to a wayward member "Hey - that's too far".

[Drifting]

That seems so simple, doesn't it Andrew?

[Drifting]

I know I said my bit, but I just came across perfect examples of completely unnecessary and abusive banter, that should be considered completely unacceptable on a public forum.

On this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13545

There are these quotes, about the OP's grammar:

"Most riskiest"? Seriously? Mocking the title. Why bother.

Read more. You'll need a whole packet of red pencils . . . Joining in for a good kick. Boots are best when they have company, at least when you're kicking someone in the ribs.

Shaym on yous. Everybodies got there strenths and weekness's I dont think we shood pic on peeples grammer or speling. At leest its reedable unlik sum peeples posts hear. (No offence intended to anyone ) Bullies travel in packs for mutual defense. We might need to build bigger bridges if we are going to have to house troll communities under them.

How can anything be more offensive than pointing out and mocking someone's spelling or grammar? Under what set of social conventions is that acceptable? And how can the three people responsible for those posts possibly provide a reasonable explanation for their complete lack of respect? As an English teacher and a published author, I'm tempted to troll (and I do mean troll) through their old posts and put the red pen to their writing. I'm certain I could find some doosies. But then who the heck has the time or inclination to bother with someone else's grammar?

On a lighter note, if those three members really have to exercise their "I'm smarter than you" muscles and criticize bad writing, I can send them a whole sheath of student essays and they can go for their lives. Might be exciting for them to pick on all those 13 and 14 year-olds... I'm sure the kids would be impressed with their razor wit.

[jacko1956]

Can't help but feel this fits in here somewhere....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

I'm not a fan of "moderation" but admit that without it sites can get out of hand.
At least the OP has his blog on which to rant and get it off his chest.
I think it is time to take heed of my favourite bit of advice of my daughter's.... "build a bridge and get over it".

Oh in case you're wondering - I don't have any imaginary friends, but I can ignore this need in others.

[corvus]

Makes me laugh every time .
corvus

[Drifting]

I should say: This distinction only became clear to me when it became clear to me that there's an ethnocentric christian value system pervading the administration of the site, and I ran foul of it. The monocultural christianity of the terms and conditions of service merely serves to demonstrate the main point, this is merely a site, not a community, and we are livestock, no more and no less. We wear a 'member' badge, but that's no different from an ear tag.

Ok.

Maybe the site introduction should be something like this...

Welcome to the online community (or site or forum for those who object to the terms community) for friendly and helpful discussion of topics of interest to bushwalkers and repository of bushwalking related information submitted by bushwalkers, for bushwalkers.

Now, was it Judaean Front of the People or People's Front of Judaea?

It's none of those! No it's isn't!!! And anyhow, you're just contradicting me!

I'm sharing that with my students tomorrow. That's a day in the life of a teacher, I can tell you...

[north-north-west]

I should say that I agree, it could appear capricious.

In a large part, wouldn't that be due to whether or not a particular post is reported?

I just think a bit of basic respect would go far around here.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: It depends on your definition of 'respect'.
I show people respect by considering them sufficiently adult to not get their knickers in a twist over any remark that is - or could be considered - critical, however mildly.
I show them respect by considering them sufficiently intelligent and broad-minded to understand that others are different and have different ways of showing respect.
I show them respect by considering them capable of looking past their own immediate feelings of 'insult' or 'offense' and thinking about what the poster may have intended.
I show them respect by not censoring myself to the point of saying nothing but 'Sunshine, and Rainbows, and Lollipops and pretty little kittens Puggles . . . '

ps: sorry about the necromancy but, honestly, one has to find something to do to avoid *&%$#! housework.