Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Mountain Rocket » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 11:52 am

Many of the other forums that I use have a rule that prevents users undermining other members market place listings.

Here is an example of such a rule, from StereoNET Australia.
Members posting nuisance replies (bagging of products, off topic discussions etc) will result in their posts being deleted, and possible suspension. You may not make any post which may potentially undermine the sale, including questioning the price, starting rumours about the provenance of the unit, and so on."

This is a simple rule, and it should be followed. Your personal opinions on why a price is too high, what is wrong with a product, why you moved on from it, whether a RRP is inflated, etc, etc, are not to be expressed in someone else's for sale thread.

If you want to raise an issue with a FS thread, consider whether it is appropriate to report the post, or PM the member selling the goods.

Otherwise, please allow members to do their own research, and make up their own minds.


I think such a policy is fantastic and would like to see it similarly implemented here.

Thoughts?
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Re: Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby doogs » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 12:16 pm

I think it's a stoopid rule. If I was potentially about to be ripped off or if I was about to purchase an item that was not genuine I would like to know. Particularly the latter as equipment can be quite important when bushwalking! If you buy a dodgy stereo you aren't facing a life or death situation...
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Re: Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby frenchy_84 » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 12:22 pm

I agree with Doogs, I would feel bad to the seller pointing out that the Item is over inflated but I would feel worse for the person who bought it at over inflated prices.
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Re: Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Mountain Rocket » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 12:26 pm

If you about about to be ripped off by paying too much for a product, that is your own problem. I do not think others have the authority to to tell people they are not getting a good deal, as it is obviously subjective. What a product is worth to me may not be what it is worth to you. In other words, I think the market will dictate a 'right' price for any given item.

As far as not buying a genuine product, how do you mean Doogs? Do you mean a fake product, or merely one that might not perform well?
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Re: Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby frenchy_84 » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 12:35 pm

Your right, whether each party feels like they are getting a good deal is up to them. But if there happens to be a new item for sale for a similar price then I dont think there is anything wrong in pointing that out, its then up to the buyer to decide for themselves whether they are still getting a good deal.
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Re: Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby doogs » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 12:50 pm

Robert H wrote:If you about about to be ripped off by paying too much for a product, that is your own problem. I do not think others have the authority to to tell people they are not getting a good deal, as it is obviously subjective. What a product is worth to me may not be what it is worth to you. In other words, I think the market will dictate a 'right' price for any given item.

Why should I let someone who is new to purchasing bushwalking gear get ripped off by over inflated pricing on the market square section of the forum. It would reflect badly on the site IMO. I think it is fine at the moment as people are just as quick to point out a bargain as something that is overpriced.
Robert H wrote:
As far as not buying a genuine product, how do you mean Doogs? Do you mean a fake product, or merely one that might not perform well?

There is a fair amount of fake outdoor gear out there, being rip off versions of the biggest brands.
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Re: Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Mountain Rocket » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 1:16 pm

doogs wrote:Why should I let someone who is new to purchasing bushwalking gear get ripped off by over inflated pricing on the market square section of the forum. It would reflect badly on the site IMO.

I can see your argument, however I still think we should trust people to make their own decisions rather than turning the community against one another with subjective opinions portrayed in such a manner that is often absolute. Your proposition also seems to suggest that (some) users are intentionally inflating prices to trap those unaware few. I do not think this is the case at all.

doogs wrote:There is a fair amount of fake outdoor gear out there, being rip off versions of the biggest brands.

Obviously if a fake item is being passed off as legitimate, the severity of the matter exceeds the rules that I am suggesting. The thread should be reported and a moderator should use their discretion as to the best course of action. But that would be an extreme and I would suggest uncommon event.
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Re: Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby doogs » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 1:41 pm

Robert H wrote:
doogs wrote:Why should I let someone who is new to purchasing bushwalking gear get ripped off by over inflated pricing on the market square section of the forum. It would reflect badly on the site IMO.

I can see your argument, however I still think we should trust people to make their own decisions rather than turning the community against one another with subjective opinions portrayed in such a manner that is often absolute. Your proposition also seems to suggest that (some) users are intentionally inflating prices to trap those unaware few. I do not think this is the case at all.
.

I am not the one proposing anything, you are and I think it's a bad idea :roll:
I don't think people are at present inflating prices, I am suggesting that an introduction of this rule would encourage people to advertise their goods for sale at an inflated price.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Miyata610 » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 1:43 pm

I like the stereonet rule.

It would stop some forum members jumping in with outdated or inaccurate information about a product. This is not an unusual event. It always seems very rude.

I also don't think that the market square is the place to discuss the quality or usefulness of a particular product.

If the post is clearly an attempt to sell a "fake" or otherwise misrepresented then surely a flag to a moderator would be more appropriate.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Mountain Rocket » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 2:00 pm

doogs wrote:I am not the one proposing anything, you are and I think it's a bad idea :roll:

Fair enough. :lol:

doogs wrote:I don't think people are at present inflating prices, I am suggesting that an introduction of this rule would encourage people to advertise their goods for sale at an inflated price.

Well obviously I disagree, but there seems to be little point in repeating myself.


Miyata610 wrote:I like the stereonet rule. It would stop some forum members jumping in with outdated or inaccurate information about a product. This is not an unusual event. It always seems very rude.

Exactly.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby stepbystep » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 2:04 pm

I didn't realise their was a problem. Has someone been hijacking a market square thread?

A couple of times I've seen someone that works in an outdoor store chime in and say, sorry buddy that item new is the same price or some such, and frankly I think that's good forum activity. One forum member gets accurate information and possibly a better deal and the seller has other options for sale and/or a reality check.

It does annoy me when I see someone advertising an item and making claims about it's robustness or specifications that aren't true. But I have always resisted hijacking their thread.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby phan_TOM » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 2:06 pm

doogs wrote:I am not the one proposing anything, you are and I think it's a bad idea
I don't think people are at present inflating prices, I am suggesting that an introduction of this rule would encourage people to advertise their goods for sale at an inflated price.

I agree, leave it how it is, an open policy is a good policy.

Miyata610 wrote:It would stop some forum members jumping in with outdated or inaccurate information about a product. This is not an unusual event. It always seems very rude.

Yes, but usually there are people who are just as quick to jump in and correct any spurious information thats been offered (theres some hardcore shoppers here with a finger on the pulse so to speak!). The purchaser is welcome to go and see if they can get a better price on the product at the location given. If it is cheaper or a better offer (ie a used item but in better condition) then they should buy it, but if it's outdated information, like a recent occurrence where the so called 'cheap' item has been out of stock for months, then they will probably find there way back to the original item that has been offered. If that makes sense.
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Re: Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby climberman » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 2:21 pm

Robert H wrote:If you about about to be ripped off by paying too much for a product, that is your own problem. I do not think others have the authority to to tell people they are not getting a good deal, as it is obviously subjective. What a product is worth to me may not be what it is worth to you. In other words, I think the market will dictate a 'right' price for any given item.



I think it's completely fair for a poster to note that product XX can be purchased for $100 at so and so a site, when a used version is being sold for $95, as long as that's done factually and politely. I like to think of forums as a community first and a market second. Ebay is a market, not a community.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby phan_TOM » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 2:27 pm

Exactly.
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Re: Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Mountain Rocket » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 2:29 pm

climberman wrote:I think it's completely fair for a poster to note that product XX can be purchased for $100 at so and so a site, when a used version is being sold for $95, as long as that's done factually and politely. I like to think of forums as a community first and a market second. Ebay is a market, not a community.

Yep this is a sound argument.

I suppose what I have a problem with is people who think it is their right to tell someone they are wrong (price too high, etc), when the issue is clearly subjective. Obviously there are cases where this does and does not apply.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby ggorgeman » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 4:10 pm

stepbystep wrote:I didn't realise their was a problem. Has someone been hijacking a market square thread?

A couple of times I've seen someone that works in an outdoor store chime in and say, sorry buddy that item new is the same price or some such, and frankly I think that's good forum activity. One forum member gets accurate information and possibly a better deal and the seller has other options for sale and/or a reality check.

It does annoy me when I see someone advertising an item and making claims about it's robustness or specifications that aren't true. But I have always resisted hijacking their thread.




stepbystep is on the money with all points and I also dont think there's really a problem.
I agree that we should avoid hijacking a thread in this way, despite some seeing it as helping rather than hijacking. This would be consistent with the longstanding convention of caveat emptor ("let the buyer beware") and I dont see why the forum should be any different.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Mountain Rocket » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 4:57 pm

stepbystep wrote:I didn't realise their was a problem. Has someone been hijacking a market square thread?

The problem is far from prolific but it still exists. On the first page of marketplace threads I came across the following 'questionable' posts:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10663#p145157
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10361#p140929
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10733#p142853

None of these are necessarily horrible but I do not think their existence adds much to the thread/listing. Others may disagree. Why should a seller be made to justify their price? To me all they have to do is list it, if it is too high the marketplace will say so and the item will not sell.

It does annoy me when I see someone advertising an item and making claims about it's robustness or specifications that aren't true. But I have always resisted hijacking their thread.

Wrong specifications are one thing and I think most sellers would be happy to be pulled up on a mistake, but robustness is clearly subjective. To me biting your tongue is certainly the most appropriate thing to do, at least that is what I would do. I am not going to preach to others what a product is or is not, as I do not see it as my place to do so. If I disagree with a seller I simply do not purchase from them, simple. We have the forums to discuss the merits or flaws of a product, not the marketplace.

Finally I think we need to give buyers a bit more credit here, as they are (typically) smart enough to work out what is and is not a good deal for them.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby stepbystep » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 5:24 pm

All I see from those links are people trying to get themselves a bargain. If a seller puts a price on something it's up to them to justify it. I'll make an offer that gets me a deal I'm happy with, if the seller isn't happy they can tell me nick off. Simple...

Think you are attempting to make a mountain out of a molehill Robert.

As has been said previously the marketplace is a tiny part of an online community. Sellers have plenty of other options available to them.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby ollster » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 5:37 pm

I've had success putting reasonable prices on items. People don't often pay much for used walking gear, regardless of the state it's in. May as well just suck it up.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 5:52 pm

Robert H wrote:[

Finally I think we need to give buyers a bit more credit here, as they are (typically) smart enough to work out what is and is not a good deal for them.



This comment seems to contradict yourself??
Nothing to see here.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Mountain Rocket » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 10:45 pm

ILUVSWTAS wrote:This comment seems to contradict yourself??

How so?
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 4:13 am

Nevermind.........
Nothing to see here.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby phan_TOM » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 4:59 pm

stepbystep wrote:Think you are attempting to make a mountain out of a molehill Robert.


I think it's a storm in a teacup as well, nothing a teaspoon of cement wouldn't fix as one of my university professors would say.

Robert H wrote:The problem is far from prolific but it still exists. On the first page of marketplace threads I came across the following 'questionable' posts:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10663#p145157

Yes, but for a bit of context read the latest posts on that thread. Nothing wrong with trying to get a better deal in my opinion, doesnt mean the seller is going to acquiesce. I think it is more a case of being oversensitive by one than questionable by the other.

ggorgeman wrote:caveat emptor

That is just common sense. Isn't it? I mean, ya gotta kick the tyres :)
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Mountain Rocket » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 8:45 pm

Let the low pressure system continue, teacup and all!

stepbystep wrote:All I see from those links are people trying to get themselves a bargain. If a seller puts a price on something it's up to them to justify it. I'll make an offer that gets me a deal I'm happy with, if the seller isn't happy they can tell me nick off. Simple...

There is a difference between trying to get yourself a bargain and directly questioning the price or merits of an item. To put it another way, an offer is one thing but to publicly question the price in the thread is another. I think it is appropriate to question the price in a personal message perhaps, so long as you are considerate, but to me that is where those discussions belong. No need to muddy the waters for the whole forum to see.

ollster wrote:I've had success putting reasonable prices on items. People don't often pay much for used walking gear, regardless of the state it's in. May as well just suck it up.

Agree but what is the relevance to the suggestion exactly?

phan_TOM wrote:Nothing wrong with trying to get a better deal in my opinion, doesnt mean the seller is going to acquiesce.

As above, there is a difference between putting in an offer and publicly questioning something. At least in my eyes.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby ollster » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 9:24 pm

Robert H wrote:Agree but what is the relevance to the suggestion exactly?


Relevance is that the market should have the right to comment on your prices if they are unreasonable, and you should not complain about it or demand rules to protect your interests. It's a forum, deal with it.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby PeterJ » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 10:01 pm

Yes it is a forum and if the price is fair and product OK you're unlikely to get a negative comment.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby Mountain Rocket » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 10:40 pm

ollster wrote:Relevance is that the market should have the right to comment on your prices if they are unreasonable, and you should not complain about it or demand rules to protect your interests. It's a forum, deal with it.

So again, you think it is your inherit right to tell others what is and is not reasonable? As I said previously, telling the seller what you think is reasonable or not is one thing, but publicly calling them out is another.

As far as the complexity of 'worth' and what defines 'reasonable' goes, remember this mini discussion from a month ago? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10638#p141147
____________

To somewhat shift the conversation, I think there was at least some agreement that thread hijacking in the marketplace should not be permitted? As ggorgeman said, what some people view as helpful information others do not. Please do not confuse this with discussing the price. I am explicitly talking about discussing the merits or flaws of any particular product here, remembering that we have the (equipment) forum.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby stepbystep » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 11:12 pm

Perhaps an eBay forum is the right place to express your passion on the philosophy of online selling ethics rather than a forum designed for discussion of bushwalking?

I found the last link you provided both informative and entertaining. Thanks!

Maybe time to take a chill pill RH.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby ggorgeman » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 11:53 pm

ollster wrote:
Robert H wrote:Agree but what is the relevance to the suggestion exactly?


Relevance is that the market should have the right to comment on your prices if they are unreasonable, and you should not complain about it or demand rules to protect your interests. It's a forum, deal with it.


No No No.
Negotiate privately with the seller via PM if you have a contrary view on price. Otherwise, leave it to other forum members to do their own research on quality, price etc. They are free to post a separate request for advice. That's the way a market works. Simple.
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Re: Suggestion for a new rule for the Market square

Postby LandSailor » Sun 16 Sep, 2012 8:57 am

Im have no view either way but I have to be honest....I think this whole thread is a classic "bikeshed" argument :lol:


"Parkinson shows how you can go into the board of directors and get approval for
building a multi-million or even billion dollar atomic power plant, but if you
want to build a bike shed you will be tangled up in endless discussions.

Parkinson explains that this is because an atomic plant is so vast, so expensive
and so complicated that people cannot grasp it, and rather than try, they fall
back on the assumption that somebody else checked all the details before it got
this far.

A bike shed on the other hand. Anyone can build one of those over a weekend, and
still have time to watch the game on TV. So no matter how well prepared, no
matter how reasonable you are with your proposal, somebody will seize the chance
to show that he is doing his job, that he is paying attention, that he is here."
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