Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

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Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

Postby Son of a Beach » Fri 23 Jul, 2010 10:51 am

This topic has been split off from here.

nakedape wrote:What, no one has bought into this yet? OK, here goes then!

For my mind the Macpac range of gear and its stores are a carbon copy of Kathmandu - aka not really worth effort unless on sale. Other no doubt will disagree - Cam from Macpac being the obvious. But in our fair democracy we're all entitled to our opinions - unlike the workers who build macpac's products who'd literally be shot for such dissent. What do you think Cam :evil: ?


The use of the word "literally" there makes your post somewhat extreme and indeed I would guess somewhat offensive to some. I'm sure that even in China, people are not likely to be actually shot dead for having the opinion that some products they make are like those of Kathmandu.

The word "literally" does get overused, and often incorrectly used, so it may be that you didn't actually mean it that way. Not sure. Yes, I am the grammar police* at home too, and yes, it annoys my wife too. :-)

* Not that I think my own use of english is particularly great either.
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby Ent » Fri 23 Jul, 2010 3:25 pm

In discussing China and worker rights it is a mixed bag. Industralised China has been a good thing for many workers but not for more than a few and especially the environment. As for disagreeing with the Government I remember chatting on ICQ to a Chinese person a few years back involved in town planning and pollution control and he made a few adverse comments against the local authorities and session link broke and his ICQ chat login disabled. I hope that was the only sanction he enjured :shock: I was the generation that was the same age of the protestors in the Chinese capital so what happened there has had more effect on my buying patterns than had I been older or younger. Curiously, according to offical Chinese history such an event did not happen :? What we forget is China is still modelled on a Stalin state, so while the veneer is looking inviting once below it all the secret service apparatus still exists. No better example than Google to show that you need to be carefull of your words in China.

The above is rather distant from the original subject but when chasing a bargin do we have the responsibility to be careful in where we buy from? Ie a diamond ring is a great start to a happy life but should we think it might have been mined by a child slave with the proceeds used to prop up a warloard conducting genocide or even pre Mandella an offensive system of government in South Africa? It is people's personal choice but lets not pretend that the cost savings are not due to a lower standard of living for some person elsewhere in the world. This applies to all markerters that go offshore. Remember, if we are prepared to pay a price premium this may not happen but then again some markerters are always looking to maximise profit trading on established brand names. Almost impossible to believe nowadays Grundig along with Zenith where technical gaints of the electronics industry as opposed to labels stuck on shoddley made products. In Germany I could not help but notice that for many products there was a German made product that was nearly always dearer but crickey it was well made. Would like to see that approach remain here.

What annoys me is the so called market category killer that crushes out opposition and results in a bland range of low to mid range products meaning that I can not even at any price get a better quality of product. Thank goodness for the internet. Hardware stores are now nearly all part of a chain so tool quality has dropped and is even still dropping. The engineering stores are going that way such as Precision Tools. Kathmandu model was copied by Mountain Design and now others. I much prefer an independent store run by people with an interest in what they sell. Regardless of the marketing words I find no support for the opinion that one brand name can be the best option for everything. If it was then people would be wearing clothes, sleeping in tents, and carry packs all with the same brand name. I much prefer the Paddy Pallins of the worlds or independent stores that while might be linked to a brand can still stock other brands that might be cheaper or offer better performance than the headline brand. Bushwalking involves probably twenty plus bits of gear and I figure if I have to lug the stuff it better work, and work well and I do not have the opinion that a single brand store can do this. Others on this site may disagree but thankfully there will be no sanctions providing the correct tone is used :wink:

As for the brand mentioned, the location in Hobart, as freely admitted by the owner, is not ideal, so we in Tassie have yet to experience the super store on the lines of the Salamanca's Kathmandu store.

Cheers Brett
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby blacksheep » Sun 25 Jul, 2010 12:29 pm

I just finished a 7 hr mtb ride around banff and canmore and read this..no wonder few business owners choose to avail them selves to their customers as i do. no other response from me. you are entitled to stir and bait, I'll just work on good products.
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby Franco » Sun 25 Jul, 2010 2:23 pm

Blacksheep
Sometimes people forget that they had to work a bit longer to buy that $100 jacket 20 years ago than they do now.

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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby nakedape » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 9:16 am

Son of a Beach wrote:The use of the word "literally" there ...


No, I meant literally - just ask the folks in Tibet, or the Uigar people how they feel about their ability to publicly (or otherwise) criticize?

The point here is that a once profitable, reputable, gear manufacturer has moved its operations into China to take advantage of cheap, obedient labour at the expense of fellow NZ folk & quality control. Cam will no doubt disagree on both points but the evidence is becoming too great to ignore:

1) A recent tour of manufacturing plants in China by an Aus clothing retailer found that not one factory operated without child labour, nor had adequate industrial relations policies aimed at protecting the worker from harm (in any form).

2) posts on this forum will show that quality has slipped - a consequence of farming out manufacturing control to the lowest bidder?

As you see, this forum has fans of macpac gear as well as critics. BUT those that buy the gear should be aware that they are supporting exploitation of those that cannot defend themselves as well as supporting joblessness at home (or in this case NZ). Macpac are no orphan, other brands are as bad or worse. Cam needs some acknowledgment for engaging with punters on issues of quality where many others do not - but will he engage with us on the social issues as well?

So when purchasing do you look at the 'made in' label, or can you live with your conscience?

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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby Son of a Beach » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 10:02 am

I have no doubt that people in China do literally get shot for publicly expressing anti-government opinions or for criticising the government (just look at the Tianamen Square massacre). I also have no doubt that people in China literally have worse working and living conditions than people here.

However, your post appears to state that people in China literally get shot for having the opinion that they are making stuff like Kathmandu. That is what I was disputing. It also implies that it is the fault of the company here for whom their factories are working, rather than the governments fault, that people are getting shot for having an opinion. Or maybe you were simply stating that they would get shot for expressing any opinion, which again, I would dispute.

I'm not particularly a fan of any such company, but I do think that your post was overdramatised in the sense of what people are actually likely to get shot for in China.


nakedape wrote:
Son of a Beach wrote:The use of the word "literally" there ...


No, I meant literally - just ask the folks in Tibet, or the Uigar people how they feel about their ability to publicly (or otherwise) criticize?

The point here is that a once profitable, reputable, gear manufacturer has moved its operations into China to take advantage of cheap, obedient labour at the expense of fellow NZ folk & quality control. Cam will no doubt disagree on both points but the evidence is becoming too great to ignore:

1) A recent tour of manufacturing plants in China by an Aus clothing retailer found that not one factory operated without child labour, nor had adequate industrial relations policies aimed at protecting the worker from harm (in any form).

2) posts on this forum will show that quality has slipped - a consequence of farming out manufacturing control to the lowest bidder?

As you see, this forum has fans of macpac gear as well as critics. BUT those that buy the gear should be aware that they are supporting exploitation of those that cannot defend themselves as well as supporting joblessness at home (or in this case NZ). Macpac are no orphan, other brands are as bad or worse. Cam needs some acknowledgment for engaging with punters on issues of quality where many others do not - but will he engage with us on the social issues as well?

So when purchasing do you look at the 'made in' label, or can you live with your conscience?

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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby alliecat » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 10:23 am

nakedape wrote:So when purchasing do you look at the 'made in' label, or can you live with your conscience?
nakedape


So... the keyboard you typed this message on... where was it made?

Expressing an opinion about manufacturing in China is fine; accusing other people of unconscionable behaviour whilst being a hypocrite is not.
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby Franco » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 10:52 am

nakedape
At any given time someone will mention "times are tough" or "life is so expensive these days" . That was true in 1960/70/80/90 you get the idea.
At any given time someone will say "things don't last as they used to..." see the above.
Fact is that we used to have "repair" shops such as cobblers/taylors/mechanics/watchmakers etc everywhere. The reason they existed was because goods deed indeed break down.
Now however they are cheap enogh to replace or if you like too expensive to repair because folk in this country don't work for $2 an hour.
As a kid when my coat ripped my mum would mend it or take it to a taylor. Now we *&%$#! about it on the NET.
Same for boots,car, electronics, vacuum cleaner, camera, fridge....
In my trade , camera retail, the repair side was a steady, large and profitable part of the business. We dealt with several indipendent repair sites as well as with the importers.
Now the shop only takes in g/tee repairs , most of the indipendent repair shops have closed down.
But, yes , (according to some) now that most cameras are made in China are not as good as the ones made in Japan, the ones we used to fix...

On the other hand folk in China that get $2 an hour (if...) do better than their mates back in the village and that is why they travel from one side of the country to the oher to get those jobs.
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby Ent » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 11:12 am

China is a mixed bag according to the owner of a business that had goods made there and regularly visited. The Government controls the export licences so agents in China control such licences and then select factories over China to produce the goods. This means that in my experience the quality is very variable. If a container load of suspect goods turns up then it is near impossible to return them so the Chinese agents will negotiate discounts on them. The problem is selling such goods. Advertising them as seconds takes the edge off a brand that claims ultra high quality goods. It was rather disappointing to see racks of such goods with a sign saying “Clothing may not hold it shape” etc in one store.

I much prefer a brand claiming high quality that does the culling before putting products in their stores. I also like being able to talk direct to someone that has complete control over the production process and can walk down to the person making the item an sort out what has happened using the same language. If say, a One Planet pack fails, then the product goes back and the design is looked at and corrected or tactfully the user is told that the item is not thermo-nuclear survival grade but the repair is made. I was pleased that after two failures Wilderness Equipment repaired the fault rather than issuing yet another replacement pair of gaiters that would have failed in the same short time. Often for other brands the item is either replaced or the user abuse argument is put forward as a reason to do nothing. The net result is often a minor repair is not done so the item winds up in landfill. Not very environmentally responsible but is a fact of business if you have no local factory or repair service with full access to all components such as pack straps, buckles, etc.

It is rather a myth that all brands have their own factories and quality controllers in China. All bar the biggest work through agents. Huge fairs are held in Hong Kong where agents advertise their range. Often brand names with skilful designers such as North Face find their clothing disassembled, patterns cut from the sample and then resold under a dozen different brand names forming part of those companies’ next season range. Works well if your size is the same as the sample but some of the sizing applied suggest a straight percentage is applied to all dimensions resulting in "fat" garments with short sleeves.

Even Nokia was forced into a joint venture factory in China and was shocked by the lack of concern shown for Occupational Health and Safety with the more ardent spokespeople for the workers disappearing from the meetings. A good example was the lunch room being used as a chemical storage area. Nokia by all accounts takes pride in human rights so if they struggled then what hope do smaller companies have, especially ones that work through agents and nameless factories.

A very good example of quality control is Suunto with the Core series of watches. This was the first Suunto made in China and quality control was so poor that watches pre 2009 are considered on at least two dedicated watch forums as buying a pig in the poke. From 2010 quality has improved and I took the punt, still would be happy paying more to have the watch made in Finland as Polar fitness monitors went from brilliant quality to crap in the move to China. Suunto initially was excellent in customer service but then under the weight of returns apparently adopted a very legal approach so if a watch failed a day outside warranty it was not repaired/replaced. Come on, you flog a product claiming long life and then abandon it after a day just because legally you can?

It is estimated that over 70% of the spare parts put in cars in the USA are counterfeit and that is despite customs and quality control systems. In China such things are rather abstract so what says that a ZKK zip is that or a forged part snuck in by a corrupt purchasing officer? Here is a quote from Wikeapedia on the problems faced in China “The New Zealand dairy cooperative Fonterra, which owns a 43% stake in Sanlu, said they were alerted to melamine contamination on 2 August (almost a month before the issue became public), and have said to have pushed hard for a full public recall. Although there was an immediate trade recall, Fonterra said that local administrators refused an official recall”. Now I would normally trust food from a New Zealand company and also expect that they would never knowingly be involved in this, but the fact is they were and even despite their best efforts struggled with this serious matter in getting action despite babies' lives been endangered. makes me wonder over NZ companies engaged in offshore manufacturing. Imagine what is the care factor if say 550 loft down is used instead of 750 loft down, etc, etc. Could explain the apparent high failure rate of goods from brands that had almost impeccable records for quality and customer service.

As often said by my father, “while you should be careful you never to pay too much, it is much worst to pay to little”. Regular 50% sales for members and “special” groups suggest that either of the thorns of that quote come into play. As mentioned such an approach cheapens a brand name to the point a purchaser does not know what the true price and quality an item is.

Cheers Brett
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby blacksheep » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 3:16 pm

by the way, our packs (like arcteryx, mammut, mtn hardware, patagonia, gregory, camelbak, etc) are made in the phillipines.
our tents are made in Vietnam.
but, carry on...
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby photohiker » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 5:12 pm

blacksheep wrote:by the way, our packs (like arcteryx, mammut, mtn hardware, patagonia, gregory, camelbak, etc) are made in the phillipines.
our tents are made in Vietnam.
but, carry on...


Excellent response blacksheep. :)

I think the MacPac (and China) bashing has gotten dead boring. Nothing wrong with preferring gear based on country of origin, but do we have to read the same old, same old everytime someone mentions MacPac?

Back on Topic:
I was in the Adelaide Store the other day, and they have a good range of gear. Staff were friendly and helpful too. The drybags I enquired about a few weeks ago had magically been put into stock (not sure if it was because of my enquiry, mind) Hope they do well.
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby Ent » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 5:30 pm

Photohiker

Do you not think that ethical standards and labling should encouraged such as free range for egg production or do we simply sweep under the carpet anything that does not meet niceness or adds a few cents like carbon reduction schemes? More and more manufacturers are identifying their products as ethical or green house netural, is that not a good thing?

Nothing wrong where something is made, what is wrong, at least in my opinion is what is what standards are used in making it. Then again slavery in cotton production was once acceptable in the USA with the law jailing a person that assisted in a slave's escape. I believe if we do not ask the question and match our buying patterns from the response then it is us equally at fault for products produced in unethical conditions. To claim we did not know is very, very hollow if all that we are after is the lowest cost.

Surely such labelling, if done with honesty, should improve the conditions of those with the least ability to do it themselves? Sorry if this bores you :roll:

Cheers Brett
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby Jellybean » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 6:00 pm

blacksheep wrote:I just finished a 7 hr mtb ride around banff and canmore and read this..no wonder few business owners choose to avail them selves to their customers as i do. no other response from me. you are entitled to stir and bait, I'll just work on good products.


Cam,

I wouldn't lose any sleep over the responses of the boringly predictable. Enjoy Banff (and watch out for bears!) - gorgeous area!!

Cheers,

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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby photohiker » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 7:02 pm

Brett wrote:Photohiker

Do you not think that ethical standards and labling should encouraged


Sure I do. But that is not what this thread is about, is it?, and Cam has already responded to point out that you are wrong in your presumption of where much of the MacPac range is produced.

Sorry if this bores you


What bores me is to regularly find that threads mentioning MacPac are regularly pursued to point out claimed failings of MacPac that have nothing to do with the thread.
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby Ent » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 7:46 pm

Hi Micheal

I pursue the view that ethical standards are an important criteria of any band and find it rather frustrating that brands that I used to admire becoming nothing but labels to be stuck on items from anywhere. Wilderness Wear faced the issue of going offshore with their decision to launch the 3 Peaks range and reserved the Wilderness Wear name for Australian made production. Sadly not many have followed this fine example and you find people familiar with a brand wondering what all the fuss is about when someone encounters difficultly. Boots are a common theme in that regard with brands such as Garmott having a loyal following with dare I say Chinese ones not performing.

If your view is it is that the brand name counts then country of origin is unimportant but if your view is the buying process is more than that then it is important. Can not but help but notice it is becoming increasingly difficult to find the country of origin out. Very few sites say, now made here rather than there. Should I buy a product and then find on an inner label under the back seat my BMW is made not in Germany, or even Europe? I do not enjoy being treated by a marketer as a person that sees only the name. Still plenty of kids spend huge amounts of money on a brand with an image when the exact same good is available at the fraction of the cost without the brand name so maybe I am just old fashioned.

As for Vietnam being better than China I am not sure as both have similar systems last time I checked. I like the idea that marketers are proactive in improving the lot of the average person, regardless if it is the person that sows something together or uses it.

As for repetition, a change is very rarely made with one statement but I suppose we live in a time that seeks ease of the "me" approach rather than makes a stand so the dogged under dog is now a person to be despised as a nuisance rather than supported. My personal hero is Pam Clarke, a person that you may not be aware of but worthwhile reading about.

Cheers Brett
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby tasadam » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 7:59 pm

OK, I was having a bit of a read of this and I was wondering if someone could explain the term "Katmanduish" to me.
The reason I ask is that I have only once in the last 5 or so years been into a Katmandu store so I have no basis to form an opinion.
I have read that Katmandu stuff is overpriced, and the only time to buy it is when they are having one of their frequent 50% off sales, which as an observer tells me that their product is typically priced at about double what they are prepared to sell it at.

Macpac pricing has, as I have observed, been a little more honest. They have sales, sometimes these sales are to help clear older stock / models / whatever. And they have their MWC club where savings can be made.

So what does Katmanduish mean? And what do Macpac do to deserve this title?

And what's all the chat about China? Where are Macpac products really made? As has been said, people need to check labels before making such accusations. It is my view that it would be quite reasonable for such posts (if they were inaccurate) to be removed from the discussion if requested.

And Brett, in light of the post that was added as I type this, do you think that Macpac products are generic products that have been manufactured by an unknown manufacturer (assumingly in China), then purchased by Macpac and then Macpac put their label on it and sell it, or do you think that Macpac products are manufactured by selected manufacturing companies to their specifications? I suspect the latter. The way I read it, I think you might suspect the former.
Perhaps "Katmanduish" means, as used in the above sentence, "to their specification". If so, I suspect, based on what I read about the quality of Katmandu product, a different set of specifications are used.

Lets keep it friendly everyone...
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby casey79 » Mon 26 Jul, 2010 8:06 pm

blah blah blah rant rant rant snooze snooze snooze!!
Hands up who is tired of this same worn out story?
I for one.
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Re: Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

Postby Ent » Wed 28 Jul, 2010 9:38 am

Good idea to split this off into a separate thread as it is a generic issue not restricted to one product or marketter.

It is clear that more than a few people are disinterested where a product comes from and how it is made with price being the major factor. That is fortunately a choice they can make. We live in a time of growing awareness that bargains can come from manufacturers that have goods made with child labour or operate only in areas that allows pollution that would not be acceptable in our own state or country. Of course the standard argument is “show me proof that my specific purchase has been made by that specific production method”. This approach places an impossible standard of proof but there are enough examples where major companies have adopted practices that are illegal in 1st world countries but acceptable in 3rd world countries. The current one in the news is BP, but before it was, Fonterra, Nike and Union Carbine as part of a long list. BP is probably the odd one out as it is big enough and wealthy enough not to be too concerned by any country's rules.

The question is, ”are enough people prepared to pay a price premium for, carbon neutral, ethical standard production, etc, or is price the dominating factor”. It is hard to be critical if manufacturers have the choice been bankruptcy or adopting such practices, though I would hope that they would draw the line at child labour. I do not adhere to the defence “I did not know” so typical when a camera crew from a reporting programs breaks the illusion that nothing is wrong.

Country of origin is an excellent guide, as it means unless corruption or illegal behaviour is involved, goods produced in such countries should meet basic standards of employment conditions and environmental requirments.

It to me is rather hypocritical to be constantly be banging on about environmental concerns spotted locally and then document them extensively by photographs using gear that might be made in a place that allows pollution standards that is poisoning town water supplies complete with a security apparatus that blocks the dissemination of such information. It is almost perverse that posting such local proof in some countries would bring harsh sanctions against the individual but such an individual posting such proof in a country with the freedom to do this, does not research if their gear is produced by ethical production means.

Basically what steps, if any, do you take when deciding gear purchases, to seek an ethically produced product? And how easy is this to do?

Brett
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Re: Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

Postby Nuts » Wed 28 Jul, 2010 10:22 am

Yes, in first world countries, work for the dole is the answer. I envisage large factories across the country giving those too lazy (or the growing number who haven't got far due to the increasing encouragement of delusions of grandeur (eg failed popstars)) a worthwhile purpose. It will come in time, though probably will be packaged better than communism, why not sooner. ( :) )

That aside, good post Brett. Ponder over the 'how do you Really know' when the country itself has control of information (as well as workers).
There are a few lists of 'ethical' companies, those who are signatories to standards, perhaps a good place to start?
The cynical view would water this down by pointing at local situation with labeling and the sneaky ways around standards. At least, I guess, voting with your wallet sends an ongoing and clear message (?)

I'm sure ive seen a list of 'ethical' outdoor gear companies somewhere (?) I'll keep looking when i get a chance. Someone posted asking for ideas here a while back (?)
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Re: Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

Postby photohiker » Wed 28 Jul, 2010 4:10 pm

What's the link with BP and Child Labour? First I have heard of it Brett.

I challenge you to buy products from any source in the world and prove that they have not been tainted by any repression of what we perceive as worker's rights. Even companies that claim to be squeaky clean have been found out to be otherwise, and you do not need to go overseas to find shonky practices, including child labour. Just because it is illegal, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I'm not condoning these practices, I'm pointing out that Capitalism and consumerism are a poisoned cup. Every economy exhibits undesirable behaviours largely driven by price, competition and greed that impact the little guy. Its not easy for one of us to "check out" of this and unless we return to an isolated subsistence lifestyle in the back blocks somewhere and stop buying stuff, we are part of the problem.

Not buying the goods solves the problem, do you think? Putting underpaid workers out of work in a country where a lack of work means workers must return to a rural lifestyle where opportunities are nil and unemployment isn't even measured. I wonder how they would feel about the self righteous views of western consumers then?

No simple answer. We do know that education improves things, and better education comes with improved living standards. Improved living standards come with regular income. Refer previous paragraph...

And yes, I am interested in where items are made, and I'm interested in the quality of materials, design and manufacture. But I don't routinely do research to find out what the employment conditions are for an unnamed non-contactable factory on the other side of the planet that made the item I may be interested in. Or then, research the component materials to the same extent, and further, the worker conditions at the raw material stage. There lies madness.
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Re: Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

Postby Nuts » Wed 28 Jul, 2010 4:35 pm

Bit of an idealistic argument but surely a desire to hold companies responsible and the resulting marketing, acknowledging standards and researching practices was and is the first step?
Afterall, many probably wouldn't have even given a second thought if no body showed any concern (or cynicism was ever a way forward) (?)

Those workers make the best of their situation but it is the consumer driving demand. The market would still be there if they worked in slightly better conditions even if the wage didn't increase....
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Re: Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

Postby Ent » Wed 28 Jul, 2010 5:57 pm

photohiker wrote:What's the link with BP and Child Labour? First I have heard of it Brett.


Strange, news to me as well, so not sure where you are getting that from?

photohiker wrote:I challenge you to buy products from any source in the world and prove that they have not been tainted by any repression of what we perceive as worker's rights. Even companies that claim to be squeaky clean have been found out to be otherwise, and you do not need to go overseas to find shonky practices, including child labour. Just because it is illegal, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


So it is too hard so lets not try. In England Workhouses existed and it was only through substain pressure from the likes of Charles Dickson, Lord Shaftesbury amongst many others that conditions improved to eliminated them. If you never attempt something you will never succeed.

photohiker wrote:I'm not condoning these practices, I'm pointing out that Capitalism and consumerism are a poisoned cup. Every economy exhibits undesirable behaviours largely driven by price, competition and greed that impact the little guy. Its not easy for one of us to "check out" of this and unless we return to an isolated subsistence lifestyle in the back blocks somewhere and stop buying stuff, we are part of the problem..


Capitalism is a verty successful economic model providing it is tempered by a social contract. Yes, if with we do not care then like any economic model can become a force for repugant practices. I have an interest in history of WW2 and it was rather amazing the number of senior officers that refused better accomodations once they found out the source of the better accomodation. Many also did not and would later claim that they did not know. Yes we are equally culpable if we do not make at least some attempt. Mine is country of origin, not perfect nor always possible.

photohiker wrote:Not buying the goods solves the problem, do you think? Putting underpaid workers out of work in a country where a lack of work means workers must return to a rural lifestyle where opportunities are nil and unemployment isn't even measured. I wonder how they would feel about the self righteous views of western consumers then?


Our's among ours many governments ban the trade in ivory which means every year national parks in Africa loses valuable income from the collection of ivory from deceased animals. Also on that list is so call conflict diamonds. What is wrong with brands distinguishing themselves by adhering to decent standards? I am sure a slave child labour might share my view but unlikely the factory owner. I wonder if the town posioned by Union Carbine would have prefer that the factory never was there. Hang on, Union Carbine closed it themselves. There is growing anger over the West's disregard for the conditons that they create in third world countries. While totally repugnat the 911 events show that at least a few do not appreciate been trodden on.

I am not saying that products should not be produced in third world countries, even with the goal of chasing the lowest unit cost, just that the brands doing this should behave to the same ethical standards that they would if staying onshore. They should be leaders in workers conditions and environmental practices not just merely adopting the lowest permissible standard.

photohiker wrote:No simple answer. We do know that education improves things, and better education comes with improved living standards. Improved living standards come with regular income. Refer previous paragraph...

And yes, I am interested in where items are made, and I'm interested in the quality of materials, design and manufacture. But I don't routinely do research to find out what the employment conditions are for an unnamed non-contactable factory on the other side of the planet that made the item I may be interested in. Or then, research the component materials to the same extent, and further, the worker conditions at the raw material stage. There lies madness.


There are basic things that anyone can do. As mentioned country of origin is one guide the other is to hunt for ethical standard labelling and when finding it be prepare to pay a bit more. I understand that people by eggs from cadge birds for economic reasons but I personally appreciate having the ability to select eggs from free range or even barned layed production. This "madness" comes from been an eight year kid used to Dad raising chooks being confronted by kilometre longs sheds crammed with dead and dying birds. I believe a major supermarket chain in Britian is pulling out of stocking cadge eggs for no other reason than their customers are not buying them. Sad for the investors in the huge sheds and the workers involved but good news for the businesses that got with the program.

The answer is us. Not easy, nor often practical, but nor is any change and it will cost money. Hang on, maybe you are right, starting a carbon reduction scheme cost money and the top jobs of two political people so maybe we are only concerned about the environment if it cost us nothing.

Brett

Best point of the day Nuts. Demand will still be there even if we did the right thing :D :D :D
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Re: Macpac goods/stores

Postby Drifting » Wed 28 Jul, 2010 7:15 pm

Franco wrote:Blacksheep
Sometimes people forget that they had to work a bit longer to buy that $100 jacket 20 years ago than they do now.

Franco


That's a blooming good point Franco.

I hate to admit it, but if it wasn't for made in China stuff, I wouldn't have 90% of the stuff I do.
All good things are wild, and free.
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Re: Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

Postby photohiker » Wed 28 Jul, 2010 7:30 pm

Brett wrote:
photohiker wrote:What's the link with BP and Child Labour? First I have heard of it Brett.


Strange, news to me as well, so not sure where you are getting that from?


Brett wrote:This approach places an impossible standard of proof but there are enough examples where major companies have adopted practices that are illegal in 1st world countries but acceptable in 3rd world countries. The current one in the news is BP


??

I'm as happy to buy a product claiming ethical production as the next bloke, but I've been around long enough not to believe everything printed on a label.
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Re: Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

Postby Macca81 » Wed 28 Jul, 2010 9:44 pm

photohiker wrote:
Brett wrote:
photohiker wrote:What's the link with BP and Child Labour? First I have heard of it Brett.


Strange, news to me as well, so not sure where you are getting that from?


Brett wrote:This approach places an impossible standard of proof but there are enough examples where major companies have adopted practices that are illegal in 1st world countries but acceptable in 3rd world countries. The current one in the news is BP


i think the link there is that BP may be able to get away with things due to the size of the company. i dont think there was any sugestion the BP uses child labour. nothing more than an example of poor ethics rather than a specific practice...

i think thats what brett is getting at anyway, thats how i understand it.
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Re: Goods Made in China & Elswhere [split]

Postby Ent » Thu 29 Jul, 2010 9:22 am

Hi

Correct. BP might be guilty of a few things with a few more things to be proven but child labour is not one of them that I am aware off so surpised by the link claimed.

The concept of a social licence is one I like. No problem with businesses seeking a return on their efforts and capital invested, just that they should do it in a responsible way especially companies as they are a created entity designed to protect individual investors from unlimited liability so the trade-off should be that they behave ethically not be created purely for profit. The issue is a company can voliate eithics or even the law and the ability of an individual to get the correct outcome is getting near impossible due to the cost involved even in Australia. A worker crippled in some countries or a town with its water supply polluted has even less chance.

As for labelling. Well I would hope it is more than just piece of material sown on a piece of gear but be part of system that provides for sensible audit of production facilities, both the immediate one and of the component manufacturers. If a marketer is caught out then saction by government in Australia or country sold in should be the result with the brand been responsible to recalling all products that do not meet the stated claim on the label. Is that unjust, unfair or just sensible, I will leave it to you to decide.

Here is an example of single brand store concept frustrating both the consumer and the producer of eithical products. A local shop would sell sandals made in Africa that were produced by a firm that started out making sandals out of car tyres for local consumption. They were simple but impossiblely tough and this got picked up by backpackers. The firm based on a practical community aid project set about producing a more luxury version but with the same toughness for the export market. It was a success. The local shop then became part of a large organisation and they were told not to stock them but to buy instead a main stream brand. Nothing wrong with that brand but not as well priced nor way near as tough nor dare I say for me as comfortable. Yes, I have both :roll: The result of the "commercial" decision is a quality and cheaper product made by ethical methods been removed from the market for no other reason than it did not fit in with the corporate image of biki clad women and six pack stomached males skipping down the beach. The picture of kids playing football with rubbish in a dusty African street could not compete. Tell me that this is a good outcome.

Brett
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