Gun control vs people power?

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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:37 pm

Gosh, turned into a discussion on ammunition and cavitation and others, typical ploy of the gun lobby in hijacking debates.

The trauma story is simple, all about the dissipation of that kinetic energy (from a lone bullet) once it enters human/animal tissue and the amount of energy that get deposited. Multiple factors in terms of velocity, weight of bullet head and the material design of that bullet point. Anything that causes the bullet to deviate from its linear trajectory will shed additional energy and the amount of trauma will correlate with the energy that gets deposited. Military bullets are designed to maximise that effect. On the operating table, one can no longer just extract a clean bullet and expect the entry path to heal (eg. Cowboy movies) but a need to debride widely of all the damaged and dead tissue, let alone splintered bullet fragments, shredded arteries/veins and meshed soft organs that are impossible to suture and control. Horrid for the surgical team as well as the victim. Absolutely no justification in civilian world.
Last edited by GPSGuided on Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Giddy_up » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:41 pm

wayno wrote:
Giddy_up wrote:
wayno wrote:rabbit ammunition of a 22 has around half the velocity of the ammo used in military .223 weapons if you read the articles you'll see the extra energy of the .223 round causes a lot more damage
rabbit amo is lead and distorts on impact and doesnt penetrate like the .23 full metal jacket ammo. it doesnt always tumble, not when it hits soft flesh, from what i recall it tumples on hitting harder objects


See my previous posts



i know the difference in calibres, I've used a variety of ammo, and i've seen the difference in damage between them.
the energy delivered by the various rounds can vary massively because of the velocity the bullet is traveling at, it has more energy as explained in my links,
thats one of the main reasons of the reason high velocity weapons are far more likely to kill than lower velocity ammo.
thats why rabbit ammo is no good for large animals and high velocity weapons are...


I know that’s why I posted what I did. So if we go back to the gun debate, it’s not the caliber of weapon that makes it more deadly. Operator, rate of fire, energy down range, these things make a weapon deadly.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Giddy_up » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:45 pm

GPSGuided wrote:Gosh, turned into a discussion on ammunition and cavitation and others, typical ploy of the gun lobby in side tracking debates on the issue.


No one is sidetracking anything GPS and I don’t think any of the comments here are from poster boys or girls for the gun lobby in the U.S or Australia!
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:53 pm

Giddy_up wrote:No one is sidetracking anything GPS and I don’t think any of the comments here are from poster boys or girls for the gun lobby in the U.S or Australia!

But evidence again how participants can easily get carried away by firearm enthusiasts in discussing detailed technicalities and losing the main focus. This is not a place to show off on one's military enriched firearm knowledge. What matters is how they all maim, often unnecessarily and significantly.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 4:09 pm

Wrong GPS, discussing the technicalities of why they maim and wound so badly is a part of the "wh we need to remove them from the open market" discussion.
There is now no way they can be removed from the black market however, there are simply far too many of them world wide,
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 4:17 pm

I am not a firearms enthusiast, i simply have an understanding of firearms and ammunition.
my exposure to weapons was mainly in cadets when i was doing as I was told, and rabbit shooting over 30 years ago, it was standard to give us target practice and teach us gun safety at cadets, other than that a bit of goat and deer hunting, again, 30 years ago...
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 4:34 pm

Moondog55 wrote:Wrong GPS, discussing the technicalities of why they maim and wound so badly is a part of the "wh we need to remove them from the open market" discussion.
There is now no way they can be removed from the black market however, there are simply far too many of them world wide,

If such is the attitude, then why even bother to discuss gun control? Then by all mean discuss all the technical and non-technical topics that enthuse gun lovers, calibre, penetrating power etc, plenty of them on Youtube.

What matters is not the incremental degree of tissue damage with different ammunition but the fact that they are around, often freely available to match up with overtly loose gun ownership regulations.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 4:40 pm

wayno wrote:I am not a firearms enthusiast, i simply have an understanding of firearms and ammunition.
my exposure to weapons was mainly in cadets when i was doing as I was told, and rabbit shooting over 30 years ago, it was standard to give us target practice and teach us gun safety at cadets, other than that a bit of goat and deer hunting, again, 30 years ago...

Appreciate that. In real life and as for you, even surgeons need to understand the basic technicalities of firearm and ammunitions, but that's specifically to understand the potential degree of trauma and any treatment plan that may follow. At the end of the day, it's the big picture that matters, right?
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 4:51 pm

It isn't really about the ammunition . All modern cartridges are similar in this aspect. I thought the debate was about assault rifles, what make the difference here is a combination of bullet lethality and firepower Oh and the ease of use, the Armalite is so easy to use it takes very little time or training to point one and pull the trigger, none of which is true of a hunting rifle, they do not need to be accurate, they rely of a high rate of fire.
This combination is what makes them scary and so desirable at the same time
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 4:53 pm

but what most people see of military weapons is usually glorified video dramas, of good guys taking on bad guys with them....
here we are pointing out the stark reality of why military weapons are so bad especially when they can be purchased so freely by civilians even when they are repeatedly used against people.
someone gets shot in the drama and they either die or they get patched up with some minimal injury, when the reality is often far worse even if they survive... the odds of you surviving being shot by high velocity ammunition and automatic weapons is a lot worse than rabbit ammo or a handgun.
dont think what you've seen in most war movies is the reality.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 5:08 pm

wayno wrote:dont think what you've seen in most war movies is the reality.


Wayno I have seen shot people [ and animals] and the damage it can do and how long recovery takes, most people have not, but then most people don't hunt either or have any first-aid training etc.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 5:26 pm

Moondog55 wrote:
wayno wrote:dont think what you've seen in most war movies is the reality.


Wayno I have seen shot people [ and animals] and the damage it can do and how long recovery takes, most people have not, but then most people don't hunt either or have any first-aid training etc.


my comment is rebuttling GPS's argument that we are unecessarily raking over the details about ammunition.. its a timely discussion to have in my view
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Lophophaps » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 5:37 pm

GPSGuided wrote:I suspect you are an optimist. As for all past disasters, there'd be a bump in public opinion and then the debate and actions will get drowned out by the mass media with endless excuses. It's entrenched and brainwashed in a significant section of the society and the moment one brings out 2nd Amendment rights, all gets shut. Unless one can reverse the Supreme Court interpretation...


I am an optimist. Your comments about the bump of public opinion are most probably correct, but might not the groundswell supporting gun control be rising? Polls suggest this. The constant drips, drip, drip of water wears away solid rock. So it is with all the mass shootings. All it takes is the perception by politicians that this issue could see them lose power and they will start moving. Baby steps are better than no steps. The Pacific Crest Trail is 4264 kilometres long and takes five months to walk. The journey starts with one step.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:43 pm

wayno wrote:my comment is rebuttling GPS's argument that we are unecessarily raking over the details about ammunition.. its a timely discussion to have in my view

Well, physical damage caused by 'military weapon' to 'pop gun' really is a continuum out there. Apart from actual military gears, at what rate of firing is acceptable? At what muzzle velocity is acceptable? At what bullet weight is acceptable? At what bullet head design is acceptable? And what civilian firearm can not be used in wars? All quite arbitrary. The question should primarily be about tight gun regulation as all firearms have far greater killing power and distance projection than other manual weapons. For the recent events in the US, even without automatic weapons, is it acceptable for the guy to run in with a shotgun and blast away? Or a rifle and picking off students? Reduced death numbers but is it acceptable?
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:47 pm

Lophophaps wrote:I am an optimist. Your comments about the bump of public opinion are most probably correct, but might not the groundswell supporting gun control be rising? Polls suggest this. The constant drips, drip, drip of water wears away solid rock. So it is with all the mass shootings. All it takes is the perception by politicians that this issue could see them lose power and they will start moving. Baby steps are better than no steps. The Pacific Crest Trail is 4264 kilometres long and takes five months to walk. The journey starts with one step.

That's the theory. But based on what I observed of the US, both being there as well the flow of events, that gun culture is as entrenched as the hold on religion. Well, it is a religion by many criteria. Our thoughts and prayers...
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Wed 21 Mar, 2018 3:15 am

GPSGuided wrote:
wayno wrote:my comment is rebuttling GPS's argument that we are unecessarily raking over the details about ammunition.. its a timely discussion to have in my view

Well, physical damage caused by 'military weapon' to 'pop gun' really is a continuum out there. Apart from actual military gears, at what rate of firing is acceptable? At what muzzle velocity is acceptable? At what bullet weight is acceptable? At what bullet head design is acceptable? And what civilian firearm can not be used in wars? All quite arbitrary. The question should primarily be about tight gun regulation as all firearms have far greater killing power and distance projection than other manual weapons. For the recent events in the US, even without automatic weapons, is it acceptable for the guy to run in with a shotgun and blast away? Or a rifle and picking off students? Reduced death numbers but is it acceptable?



the AR15 appears in a lot of mass shootings, the rest have similar semi auto matic weapons, when do you hear about mass shootings with bolt action rifles? you don't you'd have a far greater chance to disarm a person with a bolt action rifle, or even a shotgun which is a slow to load weapon, mililtary weapons arent just rapid fire, they are rapid to reload if you have prepared there are often few chances to overwhelm someone with a military weapon who has a lot of ammunition with them. semi automatic weapons got banned in aus and NZ, and we dont get mass shootings, its almost like theres a weapon threshold to engage in a mass shooting, copy cats who only see military weapons as mass shooting weapons and they wont bother with anything else...
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 21 Mar, 2018 5:04 am

wayno wrote:the AR15 appears in a lot of mass shootings, the rest have similar semi auto matic weapons, when do you hear about mass shootings with bolt action rifles? ...

Hoddle St came close. Martin Pl siege was no small fry. But yes, allowances should be made for legitimate users.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 21 Mar, 2018 7:27 am

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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Wed 21 Mar, 2018 9:11 am

I have seen posts from people I know about buying lots of assault rifles before they get banned [ these people are assuming a ban is inevitable] but partly this is an economic choice as they believe that massive dollar compensations will be paid when these firearms are surrendered, these people are simply making a rational decision based on probability, so not all of the sales are folk preparing for Armageddon. Similar strategies were employed here in Australia during the "Buy-Back" by people with lots of cash and advance knowledge.

I doubt Americans will ever give up the right to carry arms but I can see them making the rational decision to remove assault rifles from general sale
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby north-north-west » Wed 21 Mar, 2018 10:38 am

Moondog55 wrote:I have seen posts from people I know about buying lots of assault rifles before they get banned [ these people are assuming a ban is inevitable] but partly this is an economic choice as they believe that massive dollar compensations will be paid when these firearms are surrendered, these people are simply making a rational decision based on probability...

That is not rational, it is greed. Trying to make a profit by investing in arms that the government may want to remove and destroy.
They might as well go and buy shares in the weapons manufacturers.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Wed 21 Mar, 2018 11:00 am

What's wrong with a little self interest?
If you have suoerfunds here you might be surprised at how many have a lot of money invested in companies that make weapons or have interests in companies that make weapons. Simply because it is so profitable at the moment, small arms is a very small portion of this whole bag of worms. Will you stop flying with QANTAS because they use Dreamliners?
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 21 Mar, 2018 12:10 pm

Those buy-back opportunities are just sideline players, not really relevant to gun control. In any human venture, there'll always be some opportunists. Yes, greed and self-interests are inherent in human.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Wed 21 Mar, 2018 7:57 pm

Fundamentally any attempt to regulate a technology is going to be fraught. We can get mired in the technical details of what is and isn't an assault rifle, or an assault weapon, or what is "military hardware" but I don't think they lead anywhere. All they do is allow one side to feel like they have one up on the other. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. One little change, a label, a feature and its suddenly something else. Nothing has proliferated the shear number and types of semi-auto rifle-like objects for sale in the US greater than regulation. Each new rule leads to a dozen new designs to skirt it. And they don't matter. Saying that AR-15s are more dangerous is like saying that honda civics have more crashes (or whatever the current most common production car is here, in the US it would be F-150s) Its a matter of scale. They are common, off patent, pretty cheap to make, and modular. You can spend from a couple hundred up to many thousand, and so yeah, they turn up a lot. Its also not the problem.

Its the same with "military grade" encryption. Is my banking somehow not as valuable as someone else's? Its all just math, so when its broken, its broken for all, and yet we see time and again where wishes and "would be nice if" gets in the way of reality and we regulate away those things which will protect your financial and legal life just as much as your physical one. Are you a good guy, or a bad guy? If you write that code and someone else uses it, who's at fault?

We as a society have to decide how we are going to deal with people, and at the moment it sure seems that what we have chosen is pretty ham-fisted and doesn't seem to help very much at all in many cases. The US will have to deal with their problem, Canada will have to deal with the puppet we elected, and Australia has to deal with the two elephants in the room, and hope they don't decide to fight. And if you want to see the level of intelligence of one of the elephants, they are more worried about kids eating tide pods than figuring out how to get those same kids actual meaningful healthcare.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Orion » Thu 22 Mar, 2018 1:41 am

Gadgetgeek wrote:Fundamentally any attempt to regulate a technology is going to be fraught. We can get mired in the technical details of what is and isn't an assault rifle, or an assault weapon, or what is "military hardware" but I don't think they lead anywhere. All they do is allow one side to feel like they have one up on the other. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. One little change, a label, a feature and its suddenly something else. Nothing has proliferated the shear number and types of semi-auto rifle-like objects for sale in the US greater than regulation. Each new rule leads to a dozen new designs to skirt it. And they don't matter. Saying that AR-15s are more dangerous is like saying that honda civics have more crashes (or whatever the current most common production car is here, in the US it would be F-150s) Its a matter of scale. They are common, off patent, pretty cheap to make, and modular. You can spend from a couple hundred up to many thousand, and so yeah, they turn up a lot. Its also not the problem.

I don't buy that argument. An inability to draw a perfectly clean line is no justification for drawing none at all. The fact is that there are limits now, imperfect though they may be. To pretend they don't make a difference is to ignore the scientific evidence.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Thu 22 Mar, 2018 2:42 am

light semi automatic weapons with large magazines and a low kick back that the .5.56mm .223 round provides, making it easy to use with minimal experience is the weapon of choice for mass shooters, the AR15 happens to be one of those and happens to be the best selling of them, but there are no shortage of other makes and models to choose from.
but those are the specs of what mass shooters more often than not go for...
no ones going around doing a rambo firing a heavier machine gun from the hip because they are far harder to use in reality.... they arent using semi auto .22 rabbit ammo.
or shotguns...
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Thu 22 Mar, 2018 7:30 pm

Orion wrote:I don't buy that argument. An inability to draw a perfectly clean line is no justification for drawing none at all. The fact is that there are limits now, imperfect though they may be. To pretend they don't make a difference is to ignore the scientific evidence.

I'm not saying that there should be no regulation at all. I'm saying that why is an ar-15 bad but a ruger mini-14 is fine? I feel like regulation should stop where the lines are clear. Class them as single shot, repeating, and semi-auto. Minimum overall length might be appropriate as well. Past that, banning one gun or another for some arbitrary reason doesn't make much sense to me. Caliber makes no sense at all since its pretty easy to change, re-name, and is essentially unenforceable. SHOT show this year and last was one after another of loophole skirting devices and ideas. As soon as you leave the comfort of the basic function (which I think is enough to regulate on) that should be enough. Mag size I'm willing to be swayed on, but I honestly don't think it makes as big a deal as a lot of people think. That's where I sit at it.

Sure the US could stand a few more regulations perhaps, but instead of trying to fix the symptom with a regulation, why not address the problem? I will agree that I think it insane that you need a license for a car, and insurance, but don't for a gun in some places in the US. Its also insane that both Australia and Canada from a legal standpoint view all guns as evil unless proven otherwise. I think that we have a really hard time getting useful and credible regulation. Regulation has to be credible to those it would regulate. think about how long it took to get seatbelts in cars and a legal alcohol limit. I think we just ignored guns long enough that now its a bigger problem. Same with drugs, we've seen all over the western world that none of the drug laws or education over the last 20 years have done much good at all, and might be responsible for some major problems.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Avatar » Thu 22 Mar, 2018 8:58 pm

Discussion here is a bit of a moot point. The Americans are going down the path of assault-hardening their school infrastructure.
That means guarded single entrances to all schools with metal detectors, more security and students being required to use transparent backpacks in order to have them checked for weapons when arriving at school.
They already have gated communities with guards. Of course this policy just transfers the stigma of soft-target onto something else such as public transport, events, shopping centres etc.
The US incarceration rate (666/100,000) is also extremely high compared to all other countries except the Seychelles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
The US also has the highest rate of gun ownership (101 guns/100 residents) of any country in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
The US is 8th on the list of countries by murder body counts, over 15,000 per year.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Now somebody is sure to say correlation is not causation, and that is true, but maybe there is a connection here worth investigating.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Tony » Fri 23 Mar, 2018 5:50 am

There is no such thing as bad weather.....only bad clothing. Norwegian Proverb
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Orion » Fri 23 Mar, 2018 7:01 am

Gadgetgeek wrote:I'm not saying that there should be no regulation at all. I'm saying that why is an ar-15 bad but a ruger mini-14 is fine? I feel like regulation should stop where the lines are clear. Class them as single shot, repeating, and semi-auto. Minimum overall length might be appropriate as well. Past that, banning one gun or another for some arbitrary reason doesn't make much sense to me.


Funny, I thought that's exactly what you were saying; that it's next to impossible to write regulations that will work:

Gadgetgeek wrote:Fundamentally any attempt to regulate a technology is going to be fraught. We can get mired in the technical details of what is and isn't an assault rifle, or an assault weapon, or what is "military hardware" but I don't think they lead anywhere. All they do is allow one side to feel like they have one up on the other. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. One little change, a label, a feature and its suddenly something else. Nothing has proliferated the shear number and types of semi-auto rifle-like objects for sale in the US greater than regulation. Each new rule leads to a dozen new designs to skirt it. And they don't matter.


I know that here in California an "assault weapon" isn't just one single type and brand of rifle. They are defined based on characteristics and there is a list of permitted weapons. Are there exceptions, loopholes if you like, that should be closed? Probably. But it's still better than not having the restrictions.


At the moment I'm more concerned about crossing the street in front of self-driving cars. :-)
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Fri 23 Mar, 2018 6:31 pm

I think I'm the one not communicating well. I think we are more on the same page than it would seem. I'm only against regulation for regulation's sake. Just slapping a new ban just fuels the weird "OWG-flouride in the water-dig your bunker now" paranoia that feeds into our current difficulties. I'm all for regulated stuff that makes sense, and to me an "assault weapon ban" just screams bad regulations that don't actually solve the current crisis.
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