Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing ethics

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Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing ethics

Postby maddog » Fri 09 Oct, 2015 2:12 pm

Interesting article from the Conversation

In July 2015, the Australian government announced a “war on feral cats,“ with the intention of killing over two million felines by 2020. The threat abatement plan to enforce this policy includes a mix of shooting, trapping and a reputedly “humane” poison.

Some conservationists in Australia are hailing this as an important step toward the rewilding of Australia’s outback, or the idea of restoring the continent’s biodiversity to its state prior to European contact. Momentum has also been building in the United States for similar action to protect the many animals outdoor cats kill every year.

In opposition are animal advocates including the British singer Morrissey who are appalled at the rhetoric of a war on cats and promote nonlethal methods of controlling the negative effects of cats as being more effective and humane.

Who is right? The truth lies somewhere in between and is a matter of both science and ethics...

[I]t is common for the Australian press and authorities to claim there are roughly 20 million feral cats. Yet as ABC News in Australia discovered, these figures are unverifiable. Even the authors of the scientific report used to justify the war on cats admit there is no scientific basis for estimating the number of outdoor cats in Australia. Similar uncertainties apply to guesstimates about feral cats in Europe and North America. They exemplify the term “urban legend.”

So scientists really have no idea how many feral cats are in Australia or North America. What’s more, they have a poor grasp of how much of a real impact feral or nonferal cats make on wildlife.

If the science about cats and their impact on biodiversity is this unreliable, then why is Australia talking about a war against feral cats? Why are conservationists in North America in such a lather about instituting similar lethal control programs?

The answer: it is all about ethics...
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby photohiker » Fri 09 Oct, 2015 2:48 pm

The simple answer is that even if there is not 20 million cats, the truth is that there is way too many, and they are ravaging native species.

I like cats, but they don't belong outside the backyard.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby RonK » Fri 09 Oct, 2015 2:51 pm

Why so much fuss about cats? Could it be cat lovers fear it will lead to stringent controls over their pet animals?

Why not kick up a fuss over the control of feral dogs? Pigs? Goats? Deer? Camels? Brumbies? Buffalo?

And what have numbers got to do with it? The population of feral animals is always going to be a guesstimate.

The impact of feral animals however may be measured.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby Mark F » Fri 09 Oct, 2015 4:45 pm

If the science about cats and their impact on biodiversity is this unreliable,...


This article seems a bit like the climate debate - ignore science, or find some aspect of their work which is not reasonably certain - here the population of wild cats - and then claim that this makes all the rest wrong or bad. There is plenty of solid evidence that cats do enormous damage to the native fauna and so need to be controlled if we want to maintain our natural ecosystems.

The article seems to suggest that we should do nothing unless we can come up with humane control measures because we humans introduced the cat to Australia thus we are responsible for the damage, not the cats. The same arguments can be used for all feral animals dogs, foxes, horses etc. Many guidelines about capture of animals suggest that trapping is far more stressful to the animal than a well placed bullet or an appropriate poison.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby Hallu » Fri 09 Oct, 2015 7:10 pm

There could be 2 million, there also could be 50 million... It goes both ways... What is clear is the impact on small marsupials which have been declining dramatically... The combined effect of foxes and cats has been dramatic and lead to several extinctions, that is a fact. So who cares if we don't know their exact numbers... As for the "cat lovers", I don't see a cat as being cuter than a bunny, and yet Australia killed millions of bunnies with a man-made freaking virus... Besides, I value more saving entire species of native animals than the cat, which is going very well in Europe and Asia... Of course if they can find a culling method that is more humane, costs the same, and is about as effective, go for it... If not, just kill those damned cats so we can finally see bandicoots and bilbies in great numbers again. And yes, don't just focus on the cat, otherwise the fox numbers may explode : coordinate your efforts between states and scientists, it needs to be a nation-wide program targetting all feral animals. Cats is the immediate concern for small marsupials, but the cane toads are about to cause several extinctions of native species of reptiles preying on them and dying from the poison... Wouldn't it be nice if cats targetted cane toads...
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby vicrev » Fri 09 Oct, 2015 7:40 pm

RonK wrote:Why so much fuss about cats? Could it be cat lovers fear it will lead to stringent controls over their pet animals?

Why not kick up a fuss over the control of feral dogs? Pigs? Goats? Deer? Camels? Brumbies? Buffalo?

And what have numbers got to do with it? The population of feral animals is always going to be a guesstimate.

The impact of feral animals however may be measured.

The most destructive of all is/are FERAL PEOPLE............. :(
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby newhue » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 6:46 am

One only has to spend some time out in the more arid areas of Australia to conclude we have a cat problem. They are very difficult to trap, or kill in general, and genetic altering of the reproductive sex outcome is about the only way I have found/heard that can do the job with high results, low costs, and no pain for the victim. We could also take care of all the other feral animals in the country as well; but fears of a sterol gene getting into food stocks will never see that happen. And sadly it seems easier and more acceptable to drop a camel and poison it, or hang baits on a fence and kill everything that eats it with 1080 slowly eats it's guts out. Dingo or wild dog, cat or Quoll, rabbit or Wombat there is little distinction

Cat owners need to be more responsible with their pet. Inside, or cat enclosure, and deal with the feces; that's the deal. Dog owners are required to have a fence or the dog goes, or is kept inside, or fined. Not let out every night to relieve its bowels and in the mean time do some killing to keep the senses sharp.
Councils need to grow up on cat owners and treat them equally to dog owners. A cat enclosure cost less than a fence, but because cats don't attack children, only wildlife who cares. It's odd most dog attacks have been within on the family, not some random child walking down the street, but dog fence laws are common Australia wide. Where as many a bird, lizard, frog have been killed by a cat for simply being there.

From your back yard to the centre of Australia they are out every night killing for fun or food. I can, and five others vouch seeing a cat the size of a male cattle dog, central Simpson desert, madigan line. It doesn't get much more remote that that, but there was the cat. They eat road kill, sit under water troughs waiting for finches to land, and have learned living near car campers is easy picking. I trapped 6 cats in 5 hours on the banks of the Cooper Creek Windorah that had become lazy form human's sloppiness.
If you walk through the bush and wonder why it seems empty, perhaps thought there should have been more wildlife than you have seen, it's not just because of the noise you may be making.

Please get writing to your local Councillor, State, or Federal politician pleading for more change on feral animals, particularly cats.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby vicrev » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 6:51 pm

Wow, a cat as big as a cattle dog...must be evolution gone crazy, Charlie Darwin would be sooo pleased ...........
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby newhue » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 8:30 pm

yep, believe it or not, it just wasn't me who saw it. We were all gobsmacked. Most of the cats I have come across are similar size to domestic cats, from big males to small females; just all in the wrong places. Even with the bush care mob I do a bit with, we just finish planting out a creek and who should arrive to see what's happening, a neighbours black and white moggie. Just wrong and common.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby RonK » Sat 10 Oct, 2015 10:56 pm

vicrev wrote:Wow, a cat as big as a cattle dog...must be evolution gone crazy, Charlie Darwin would be sooo pleased ...........

I see no reason to doubt the size claims.

Image

Or the numbers estimates.

Image
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby newhue » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 4:44 am

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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby vicrev » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 10:07 am

RonK wrote:
vicrev wrote:Wow, a cat as big as a cattle dog...must be evolution gone crazy, Charlie Darwin would be sooo pleased ...........

I see no reason to doubt the size claims.

Image

Or the numbers estimates.

Image
Wrong Ronk,not doubting the size claims at all,just amazed they can grow so big :shock: ......
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby doogs » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 10:54 am

I recently read (most of) the Feral Cat Abatement Plan. Quite interesting. In the plan they pretty much admit that it is financially not feasible to rid the country of feral cats. They aren't all bad though, feral cats food of choice is rabbit. Without feral cats what would happen to the rabbit populations?? I do agree that we need rid of them but it is a more complex issue than just getting rid of them.
Interestingly Bruny Island are going through the first steps of completely removing cats from the island, both feral and domestic. It will be interesting to see how the cat luvrs on the island react if it is passed as a law.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby highercountry » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 11:29 am

vicrev wrote:Wrong Ronk,not doubting the size claims at all,just amazed they can grow so big :shock: ......


It is actually a rarely sighted Striped ginger leopard. :D
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby icefest » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:14 pm

doogs wrote:I recently read (most of) the Feral Cat Abatement Plan. Quite interesting. In the plan they pretty much admit that it is financially not feasible to rid the country of feral cats. They aren't all bad though, feral cats food of choice is rabbit. Without feral cats what would happen to the rabbit populations?? I do agree that we need rid of them but it is a more complex issue than just getting rid of them.
Interestingly Bruny Island are going through the first steps of completely removing cats from the island, both feral and domestic. It will be interesting to see how the cat luvrs on the island react if it is passed as a law.


Cats and rabbits need to be controlled at the same time.
Look at Macquarie island for the result of eradicating just one.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby vicrev » Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:38 pm

Maybe the size of these cats, can explain the sightings of the famous Gippsland Pumas ?......
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby newhue » Mon 12 Oct, 2015 5:49 am

doogs, cant afford it they say?
Just one FA18 super hornet is all that would be required. Rid Australia from feral animals, or add No 77 to the fleet. We won't stop an invasion of another country, but we can stop feral animals. I know where I'd rather my money spent. Just how you want to look at it weather it's financially possible.

Could also not buy another one and put the money into mental health, or careers. And perhaps another for weed eradication around the nation as well.
Last edited by newhue on Mon 12 Oct, 2015 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby newhue » Mon 12 Oct, 2015 5:55 am

vicrev wrote:Maybe the size of these cats, can explain the sightings of the famous Gippsland Pumas ?......


Funny you say that, I was commenting about this yesterday to family and wondered if the Glenelg River Puma was exactly that. We slept on a jetty once upon a time and some local was trying to stir us up over this rarely sighted Puma.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby walkerchris77 » Mon 12 Oct, 2015 6:59 am

Wow, thats a big puss.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby doogs » Mon 12 Oct, 2015 9:53 am

newhue wrote:doogs, cant afford it they say?

I'm not quoting anyone...the problem is huge and to eradicate feral cats from the continent and islands of Australia would cost many billions of dollars, in my opinion. It is not a simple issue, there are many factors apart from the cats that need to be considered.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby newhue » Mon 12 Oct, 2015 10:39 am

Yeh sorry doogs if you felt like one went over the deck. The ol written word not transcribing the intended tone again. I agree, the problem is large on many fronts, and I don't think we are winning.
I find it rather sad nature is the one who always pays. It's free and in abundance apparenly. Just between feral animals, weeds, and humans its on its knees struggling; but we have plenty of coin for wars and weapons. Well my 10c anyway.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby weeds » Mon 12 Oct, 2015 8:45 pm

newhue wrote:Yeh sorry doogs if you felt like one went over the deck. The ol written word not transcribing the intended tone again. I agree, the problem is large on many fronts, and I don't think we are winning.
I find it rather sad nature is the one who always pays. It's free and in abundance apparenly. Just between feral animals, weeds, and humans its on its knees struggling; but we have plenty of coin for wars and weapons. Well my 10c anyway.

Oi, leave me out of it.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby Hiking Noob » Mon 12 Oct, 2015 9:05 pm

A friend has trapped two about 15km south of Newcastle, they were seriously evil looking things, not as big as the ginger above but still bigger than your normal domestic.

I was shocked when I was at Lightning Ridge for work, people just fed the cats and let the breed up near the opal mines, damn things were everywhere.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby newhue » Tue 13 Oct, 2015 7:12 am

Na weeds your in it like the rest of us. Maybe I should have said introduced exotic plants, and invasive natives non indigenous to an area. People often overlook Aus natives as being a pest. But there are many natives that are invasive when outside their original local area. Umbrella tree from Nth Qld if fine up there, but in Brisbane it's as bad as a Boganvillia. But that's another thread.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby maddog » Tue 13 Oct, 2015 4:02 pm

G’day Newhue,

You take a very conventional view of pests and weeds. Spending the defence budget on an ill-conceived and indiscriminate pogrom would at best be an enormous waste of resources (at worst an environmental disaster on the grandest of scales).

The problem is, as others have pointed out, many of these species have become integrated within ecosystems and now essential for their functioning. So much so that it is thought the intruders have assumed the role of keystone species. In the case of predators they control excessive populations and clean the gene pool - the diseased and deformed are the first to go. Dingoes and other wild dogs may play such a role, and we are starting to realise that cats may do the same in a suburban setting or on islands (the benefits are outweighed by the costs in arid zones). Many maligned weed species also provide valuable ecosystem services, such as Camphor Laurel, a food source for many native birds, etc.

Also, in regards to the size of the cats, it would appear they are evolving to fit the niche (natural selection and all that palaver). So, if the animal fills the niche, and has evolved since arrival, at what point do we consider them native?

You know it makes sense,

Maddog.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby vicrev » Tue 13 Oct, 2015 6:15 pm

maddog wrote:G’day Newhue,

You take a very conventional view of pests and weeds. Spending the defence budget on an ill-conceived and indiscriminate pogrom would at best be an enormous waste of resources (at worst an environmental disaster on the grandest of scales).

The problem is, as others have pointed out, many of these species have become integrated within ecosystems and now essential for their functioning. So much so that it is thought the intruders have assumed the role of keystone species. In the case of predators they control excessive populations and clean the gene pool - the diseased and deformed are the first to go. Dingoes and other wild dogs may play such a role, and we are starting to realise that cats may do the same in a suburban setting or on islands (the benefits are outweighed by the costs in arid zones). Many maligned weed species also provide valuable ecosystem services, such as Camphor Laurel, a food source for many native birds, etc.

Also, in regards to the size of the cats, it would appear they are evolving to fit the niche (natural selection and all that palaver). So, if the animal fills the niche, and has evolved since arrival, at what point do we consider them native?

You know it makes sense,

Maddog.
Would not have thought evolving,more like adapting..... :)
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby Hiking Noob » Tue 13 Oct, 2015 8:05 pm

vicrev wrote: Would not have thought evolving,more like adapting..... :)


Yup, like a Goldfish and a Carp, I think evolution will take a bit longer, if not we will be bowing to our cat overlords very soon.
A few of my friends are keen hunters and still come across more Foxes, Goats, pigs and dogs compared to feral cats.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby weeds » Tue 13 Oct, 2015 8:32 pm

newhue wrote:Na weeds your in it like the rest of us. Maybe I should have said introduced exotic plants, and invasive natives non indigenous to an area. People often overlook Aus natives as being a pest. But there are many natives that are invasive when outside their original local area. Umbrella tree from Nth Qld if fine up there, but in Brisbane it's as bad as a Boganvillia. But that's another thread.


Funny thing on our Green Gully walk.....raggedy ann was nagging me to take photos of plants with pretty flowers. I discounted them as weeds.......only later to find out they were native.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby newhue » Wed 14 Oct, 2015 5:14 am

That would be right weeds...wrong again

Sad thing is it easier to find and identify weeds than your true local natives plants. Brisbane City Council has an excellent web page on weeds. But finding native plants indigenous to your part of the world before all the clearing took place is not so easy. Then if you can identify them try and buy them. This bushcare group I knock around with planted out a small part of a creek the other day. 176 species were identified in the creek, with 75% being weeds. Indigenous plants grow faster, survive conditions better, and the local animals live and bread in them, great for biodiversity. But they need a chance to beat the weeds.
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Re: Australia’s war on feral cats: shaky science, missing et

Postby photohiker » Sun 17 Apr, 2016 11:23 am

Robotic killers that detect feral cats, spray their fur with poison and rely on them to essentially lick themselves to death have been deployed in the Australian desert for the first time.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... he-outback

Looks like we finally have a good plan to put these cats under control.
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