B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

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B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby frank_in_oz » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 12:40 pm

There they were,innocent citizens out for a drive in the bush when they decided to park for a while.

Some locals decide they have parked in the wrong spot. A bit of trouble follows.

Wonder who will pay for the damage?

NB - STRONG language in this video: http://tools.themercury.com.au/video/vi ... hp?vid=455

Article: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24 ... 60,00.html
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Son of a Beach » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 12:54 pm

The Mercury wrote:The man and woman protesters were using a "dragon" technique, in which they put their arms into a pipe running through the floor of the car and into a concrete block in the ground below.


Can anybody do a better job of explaining the '"dragon" technique' than the Mercury does? I can't quite figure out what they mean.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby frank_in_oz » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 1:00 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:
The Mercury wrote:The man and woman protesters were using a "dragon" technique, in which they put their arms into a pipe running through the floor of the car and into a concrete block in the ground below.


Can anybody do a better job of explaining the '"dragon" technique' than the Mercury does? I can't quite figure out what they mean.

Same here, it sound effective though.....
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Son of a Beach » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 1:09 pm

Effective at getting your car smithereened with a sledge hammer?
(yes, I just made that word up)
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby frank_in_oz » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 1:22 pm

Dragon (or “sleeping dragon) technique - more info but NOT a definitive definition

From a US anti war protest report: http://www.thetartan.org/2007/3/5/news/protest
Fourteen protesters chained themselves together using lockboxes, or what Carnegie Mellon police sergeant William Richie termed the “sleeping dragon technique” — long pipes of steel and mesh covered in duct tape through which people’s hands are locked together — and sat in a line in front of the building’s main entrance on 43rd Street, while six others chained themselves to the 40th Street entrance. One protester suspended herself from a tripod 15 feet in the air in front of a main vehicle entrance.

Looks like international sharing of protesting techniques.....

Edit - Ah, wikipedia - a definition for everything!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_dragon

A Sleeping dragon is a manuever used by protesters to cause disruption. It involves handcuffs and PVC pipe: a series of protesters are handcuffed together through the PVC pipe, which precludes police from simply using bolt cutters to break the handcuffs. Advanced variations include covering the PVC pipe elements which might it more difficult or distasteful to break. Examples include chicken wire, tar, duct tape, and even urine and feces. Another variation is filling the PVC pipe with concrete. Often the protesters will chain, lock, or otherwise secure themselves to immovable objects, resulting in a difficult-to-remove human obstacle.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby flyfisher » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 3:06 pm

Lets hope that these people can settle their differences. :( :(

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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby eggs » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 6:44 pm

Hmm

Seems this was specifically setup to get this reaction

See http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/entrapped_in_the_forest/

I doubt bushwalkers would get this treatment

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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby geoskid » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 7:40 pm

Thanks for that eggs, theres always two sides to a story.
Prior to reading that response I was already thinking of what it would be like to be in the shoes of the contractor. The protestors that like to be portrayed as 'innocent' and 'peacefull' are nothing of the sort. They are weak and manipulative and passive aggressive. If anybody does not like the laws of the land, lobby to change them. In the mean time let someone go about their lawfull business. Media coverage on its own will not change a thing, it just provides more income for the media!
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby corvus » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 7:55 pm

flyfisher you and I are mates from opposing sides ,I do not condone any violence and was sickened by this video however it was a SET UP and I wonder what we would do if someone purposely stopped us from doing our lawful jobs for whatever reason that prevented us from earning our needed wages .
Peaceful protest I agree with but not malicious interruption to workers who rely on their income to support families pay mortgage etc and I believe this type of protest does the Green Movement absolutely no good at all.

It is so easy to do what the protesters did set up a hidden camera and provoke ordinary working Tasmanians to a fury they were not "animals" just incensed workers looking at lost wages for this and other days who lost the plot ,if you investigate further the trashed car was not as portrayed in the Video but an old bomb which was already trashed by the protesters .

Oh how I hate this topic it so interferes with what we are about ,walking in the bush with friends.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby flyfisher » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 9:12 pm

Corvus, you make some good points and perhaps my reaction to the video was a bit knee jerk. :oops:
I can understand his frustration at being unable to work but I can also feel frustrated and saddened at the destruction of these magnificent forests.

Still I think we are more alike than different and hopefully we can have many walks together before we are too old :D :D :D

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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby geoskid » Thu 23 Oct, 2008 9:24 pm

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU, HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR FLYFISHHER, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!
HIP HIP HOORAY, HIP HIP HOORAY, HIP HIP HOORAY! WHY WERE.........
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby flyfisher » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 5:21 am

Why thank you kind sir :D :D

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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Whos_asking99 » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 6:14 am

corvus wrote:looking at lost wages.


Try $30,000 in lost wages on top of a total of $1 million worth of damage to machinery, that's the situation that contractors in at the moment.

From what I see, this was just a this was just a way for the Greens to get more publicity, things have been a bit on the quiet side, what with all the news on the economy...but this kind of thing could be a daily occurrence for the workers out there, and its just that on that day they got the reaction they were after.

There's a right way to do things, and there's a wrong ways to do things...and stopping people from feeding their family is just plain wrong.

Thats my view, had to get it out there.

And happy b'day Flyfisher.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Son of a Beach » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 7:06 am

In my opinion there are no 'good guys' in this story. There is no excuse for the behaviour of either side. One was unfairly provocative. The other was unnecessarily violent. It seems that both were being unlawful.

I do not believe that there is any excuse for either side, and I cannot condone the actions of either side. However, I do feel some sympathy for both sides.

That kind of deliberately provocative action, especially when it affects somebody's income is twisted. They should be peacefully targeting forestry management, if they have a problem with forestry strategy and action. They should not be deliberately and repeatedly targeting a contract worker who makes no forestry decisions but merely takes on jobs that are on offer.

The response by the forestry operator was unnecessarily violent in the extreme, and while we expect more extreme responses after extreme provocation, I think people ought to have more self control (and perhaps ought to have seen the trap waiting), and to better understand the use of peaceful and calm responses.

Having said that, these are just my opinions, and I've never been in exactly either situation myself.

Whos_asking99 wrote:this was just a way for the Greens to get more publicity


It is inappropriate to state (either implicitly or explicitly) that these protesters are in any way aligned with a political party, unless there is irrefutable proof of that. It would be more appropriate to refer to 'conservationists' or to 'people with green views' (with a lower case 'g' not an upper case 'G').

Note that although I'm a (peaceful) conservationist, I have no sympathy for the Green party whatsoever. I would also expect that there are also disruptive conservationist protesters who do not have any alignment (official or otherwise) with any political party.

The two things are very, very different. There are people out there who very much want to preserve old growth forests and who wish to have nothing to do with the Green party (I'm one of them). Please do not get the two things confused.

Although I'm sure that the Green party is happy with and condones some conservationist protestor actions, they may or may not have anything to do with organising any particular action. Remember that conservationists existed independently of the Greens, long before the Greens existed at all. The Green party took their name from the conservationist 'green' views, not the other way around.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Whos_asking99 » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 8:00 am

Very valid points made.

Son of a Beach wrote:The two things are very, very different. There are people out there who very much want to preserve old growth forests and who wish to have nothing to do with the Green party (I'm one of them). Please do not get the two things confused.


Oh yea, sorry about that, that was one fact that I had overlooked, I should have checked first, my mistake.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby corvus » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 5:03 pm

Flyfisher as geoskid said "why were you born so beautiful etc" Happy Birthday mate and I look forward to many many walks for us in the coming years :D
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby corvus » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 7:14 pm

SoaB,
Are you seriously suggesting that these protesters don't vote Green :? I cannot offer any sympathy for anyone who deprives working men from earning their lawful wages especially when I suspect that the said protesters are being paid by us Taxpayers in some form.
I also love Old Growth Forest and I am a conservationist at heart but we need balance and selective logging can be good for our forests in many instances . I personally believe that these extreme protesters may have their own personal demons to deal with thus their provocative actions so "they will reap what they sow" and whilst I do not condone violence I suspect that my temper may have been tested on that occasion especially if I was loosing a days wages.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby corvus » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 7:32 pm

Bugger all this lets just keep this Forum to Bushwalking and lets do our protesting elsewhere Moderators what do you think .
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Son of a Beach » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 7:41 pm

corvus wrote:SoaB,
Are you seriously suggesting that these protesters don't vote Green :?


No, I'm suggesting that being a conservationist (violent, peaceful or otherwise) does not necessarily make you a Green voter. I'm also suggesting that even if they do vote Green, that does not imply that the Green party supports or condones this action. Note that I'm no supporter of the Green party, but I am a conservationist, to some degree.

What I was originally getting at is that without any evidence that the purpose of the protest is to get publicity for a political party, then it is not appropriate to say that is the purpose.

I cannot offer any sympathy for anyone who deprives working men from earning their lawful wages especially when I suspect that the said protesters are being paid by us Taxpayers in some form.


I do not sympathise with them for their actions, nor with what they received for their actions. I merely sympathise with their desire to preserve old growth forest (but the ends does not justify the means). I think that these protesters are doing conservation a great disservice.

I also love Old Growth Forest and I am a conservationist at heart but we need balance and selective logging can be good for our forests in many instances


Selective harvesting of forests can be a great thing. However, there are many definitions of selective harvesting, and the foresty industry in Tasmania appears to have a very different idea of selective harvesting to foresters I've spoken to elsewhere in the world (including other states of Australia).

Having said that, it is also good to have forests that are untouched by any harvesting. But this is all getting off topic. :-)

I personally believe that these extreme protesters may have their own personal demons to deal with thus their provocative actions so "they will reap what they sow" and whilst I do not condone violence I suspect that I my temper may have been tested on that occasion especially if I was loosing a days wages.


Agreed. :-) I do not know if I would have been able to hold my temper in a similar situation or not. However, if I did lose my temper, I would not claim to have any excuse, and would have to take full responsibility for my own actions.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby MrCAMEL » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 7:51 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:No, I'm suggesting that being a conservationist (violent, peaceful or otherwise) does not necessarily make you a Green voter. I'm also suggesting that even if they do vote Green, that does not imply that the Green party supports or condones this action. Note that I'm no supporter of the Green party, but I am a conservationist, to some degree.


In the case of the protesters camping over a road blocking access,


“The Tasmanian Greens congratulate these courageous young people and their determination to continue their peaceful campaign to draw attention to the ongoing wilful destruction of our magnificent native forests, especially in light of this appalling violent behaviour,” Mr Morris said.


http://tas.greens.org.au/News/view_MR.php?ActionID=3350
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Nuts » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 8:10 pm

I was looking for the photo's posted here of the area, it's not selectively logged...
I believe it's worth keeping though, and I shudder to think of what would happen without attention.
The figures given for the guy's losses- they also point out his profits?...
Anyhow... Nasty business!
Bring on more referendums I say, let the people sort out the 'too hard' basket
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Son of a Beach » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 8:15 pm

MrCAMEL wrote:
Son of a Beach wrote:No, I'm suggesting that being a conservationist (violent, peaceful or otherwise) does not necessarily make you a Green voter. I'm also suggesting that even if they do vote Green, that does not imply that the Green party supports or condones this action. Note that I'm no supporter of the Green party, but I am a conservationist, to some degree.


In the case of the protesters camping over a road blocking access,


“The Tasmanian Greens congratulate these courageous young people and their determination to continue their peaceful campaign to draw attention to the ongoing wilful destruction of our magnificent native forests, especially in light of this appalling violent behaviour,” Mr Morris said.


http://tas.greens.org.au/News/view_MR.php?ActionID=3350


Thanks for posting this. I certainly clears up some of the speculation, and partially justifies some of the comments others have made. I don't think the Greens are doing themselves any favours here, either.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Chris » Fri 24 Oct, 2008 9:43 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:No, I'm suggesting that being a conservationist (violent, peaceful or otherwise) does not necessarily make you a Green voter. I'm also suggesting that even if they do vote Green, that does not imply that the Green party supports or condones this action. Note that I'm no supporter of the Green party, but I am a conservationist, to some degree.


Sorry but I have to throw in another angle. I'm not a Greens member, but do vote for and support the party. That does NOT mean I agree with everything they say or do. They and the extreme protesters sometimes make me cringe with their over-reaction. As in just about any organisation, there are some complete ratbags who alienate others from their cause. However with the current policies of the major parties I believe that the Greens are the ONLY voice for saving some irreplaceable parts of this state.

There are also Gunns employees working in the timber industry who are horrified at what their employer does, and who were "required" to demonstrate in favour of the Pulp Mill. When it's a matter of having a job and supporting a family, sometimes it's not possible to select your employer for their ethics or environmental responsibility.

It would be very sad if this discussion caused ill-feeling between forum members, as we all obviously share many of the same values. It's wonderful to live in a country where we can have a robust discussion/disagreement without fearing repercussions. I hope to enjoy walking with both Corvus and flyfisher again.

Oh, and hope you have a terrific birthday flyfisher!
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby tasadam » Sat 25 Oct, 2008 6:55 am

Chris wrote:It's wonderful to live in a country where we can have a robust discussion/disagreement without gearing repercussions.
That, as I see it, is precisely what Controversy Corner is about (topical, of course), and I concur entirely. Differing views from like-minded people - people who enjoy bushwalking, and discussing issues related to such.
Keeping it friendly is the nature and ethic of this forum, to which everyone does a fantastic job!
(Or we put them on the carpet! :wink: )

I have not yet watched the video. If, as the comment alluded to by Mr Morris suggests, it indeed was a "peaceful campaign" by the protesters, why do the opposers to this campaign not just call the police and have them dealt with lawfully? Perhaps I should watch the video and educate myself. Perhaps I have better things to do with my time. My thoughts at this stage is that there should be no need for violence. If there is no lawful way to sort something out without violence, isn't that, in a broad sense, war?
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby MrCAMEL » Sat 25 Oct, 2008 7:13 am

I think my post might have been a bit misleading. The comment made by Mr Morris, as far as I can tell, is a comment about the incident yesterday or the previous night and not to do with the happenings in the video. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24 ... 02,00.html
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby tasadam » Sat 25 Oct, 2008 7:30 am

Had to chuckle at that.

Amazing how mis-information can twist things.

Like spam emails, many would just accept something they read because it says it's true and sounds plausable. Like the guy off a motorbike with his helmet wedged in the back of a truck and a comment saying "he lived - wear a helmet". No, he didn't live - I check this sort of thing at Snopes.com (WARNING - link contains graphic images)

As for comments quoted by others around the internet, when posting I generally like to post the link it came from.
As for Mr Morris's comments, I couldn't be bothered checking, though from what I have read, I was surprised he had such a positive tone to it. Maybe I should watch the video.

OK I'm back... Just read the news article you linked.
That IS disturbing. A new trend.
I have seen the Florentine protest setup - all looked fairly peaceful when I went past as well.
One side effect is that it is drawing media attention to what would seem to be the otherwise forgotten protest.
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Whos_asking99 » Sat 25 Oct, 2008 7:35 am

Chris wrote:It would be very sad if this discussion caused ill-feeling between forum members, as we all obviously share many of the same values. It's wonderful to live in a country where we can have a robust discussion/disagreement without gearing repercussions. I hope to enjoy walking with both Corvus and flyfisher again.


Have to admit that this is one of the things I do like about this group. Even though most people seem to share different views om both ends of the spectrum. Everyone can still talk it out like adults (with the exception of me).
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby Marky » Sat 25 Oct, 2008 1:54 pm

Politics and religion has ruined many friendships......
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby corvus » Sat 25 Oct, 2008 6:42 pm

Chris I would never let my my adherence to the current State and Federal Governments come between my BWT stroller mates and me .I respect all except EXTREME views and as I have often stated in this forum if we all agree it would be so boring. :(
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Re: B hell, you can't park your car safely these days?

Postby flyfisher » Sun 26 Oct, 2008 5:20 am

Just imagine if we were all Collingwood supporters. :shock: :D

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