NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby maddog » Mon 02 May, 2016 5:36 pm

Well the thing is, NNW, aerial culling of the horses is just not going to happen. And passive trapping and euthanising really does sound so much more humane :)
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 02 May, 2016 5:47 pm

maddog wrote:...passive trapping and euthanising really does sound so much more humane :)

Prolonged agony until the executioner does the deed. Aerial multi-shots or poison darts would be quicker.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby north-north-west » Mon 02 May, 2016 6:31 pm

...does sound so much more humane.

To the ignorant, yes. So it's more about perceptions than reality. Like 99.99% of politics.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby maddog » Mon 02 May, 2016 7:01 pm

G'day NNW and GPS,

After what occurred last time aerial culling is just not going to happen. Trap yards using a salt block as a lure followed by quick dispatch sounds quite humane to me. You might be interested in this:

ABSTRACT: Managing populations of feral horses is a highly contentious issue, not the least because of the high regard in which horses are held by the community. Past attempts to manage them in Australia and internationally, especially where it has involved aerial culling and little effective consultation with key stakeholders, have drawn considerable criticism from a wide diversity of groups and individuals. Consequently, managers often find it difficult to effectively manage the damage due to feral horses.

Here, we report on a program that has been successful in removing feral horses that enter Namadgi National Park in the Australian Capital Territory (ACT) from the adjoining Kosciuszko National Park. The program was developed in close consultation with key stakeholders including the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, adjoining landholders, and the ACT Animal Welfare Advisory Committee. A management plan was developed and endorsed by the relevant Government Minister.

The approach taken was to entice animals into yards where they were trapped and euthanised. The plan contains a communication strategy that includes key messages and frequently asked questions. Key elements of the success of the program have been open consultation with key stakeholders; developing trust and maintaining lines of communication; and strict adherence to nationally endorsed animal welfare codes of practice and standard operating procedures for managing pests.


Note: Not even the Shooters, Fishers & Farmers Party support aerial culling of the heritage horses.

Plain and simple, for the slow learners, you can have something, or nothing, but the aerial cull you lust for just ain't going to happen. :lol:

Cheers,

Maddog.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby MickyB » Mon 02 May, 2016 7:09 pm

DanShell wrote:I know culling of animals that are a pest or harmful to the environment is necessary but am I the only one that feels sorry for defenceless animals? I eat meat but I couldn't kill an animal to do it. Call me a hypocrite of you like but just saying.


You are not the only one Dan. My brain understands why it's necessary. My heart doesn't.

DanShell wrote:There must be 1000's of horse people that could take these wild horses and train them and love them so they can live instead of being killed surely?? Or am I delusional?

Just like cats and dogs, there are already 1000s of horses that need a 'home'. Unfortunately even if these wild horses could be caught, tamed and trained there wouldn't be enough loving homes for them.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby Gadgetgeek » Mon 02 May, 2016 7:23 pm

There will certainly be unintended consequences for this cull. A slow and steady process that can develop the appropriate logistics to prevent problems and find solutions along the way will be important. Arial culling leaves more food on the ground for scavengers and predators, which won't help the overall situation either. The only political part of the decision should be the go ahead for full removal, after that it should be left up the the conservation and biology folks to manage. There are a lot of methods that can be put in place for culling, but its not really suited for the wider public debate. Once the decision is made to fix the problem, that sort of should be it, none of the solutions are pretty.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby Hallu » Tue 03 May, 2016 4:43 am

north-north-west wrote:And how long does it take for the numbers to build up again?
They need to bite the bullet (so to speak) and aim at total eradication.


I agree, we may as well kill them all. The only other solution is to keep those 10 % but keep them as moving groups. Just like cattle, they can be beneficial to the ground, by mixing it and fertilizing it, if they're forced to moved now and then,as groups instead of isolated destructive individuals. Problem : it works best in Europe and the US, on fertile ground. Australian plants (especially in the Alps) don't need much fertilizing. There's never been big grazers in the Alps, only wombats and wallabies in sub-alpine regions. That's why it would be a safer and smarter to simply kill them all, reminding the people that there are plenty of them in Europe where they come from, and that they can still keep them as domesticated animals.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby icefest » Tue 03 May, 2016 9:34 am

photohiker wrote:Next question: If they are prepared to wipe out 90% of brumbies, what are they going to do with the deer?

Image
It's about time.

Now that's been said imma say something that I never ever thought I'd say. I actually agree with you about something, madog:
maddog wrote:Complete eradication, in a cost effective manner, would be unlikely without aerial culling.

Not with much of the rest though :/

and humane =/= humanitarian

maddog wrote:If you really believe that leaving a few horses, remnants of a greatly reduced population, roaming the park would cause such great damage perhaps you could quantify this. Of course, if honest and informed, you are more likely to conclude that such a reduced population is somewhat benign, or may even do some good.


I'm sure we can agree that having no horses will have no horse based impact or damage on the park, right? Considering this and looking back at Australia's history of introduced species, the more reasonable thing would be to assume that it doesn't do any good.

Even the wiki on introduced species in Australia has nothing good to say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_ ... _Australia
The only actually good species for the environment that I can think of are the dung beetles introduced to get rid of the manure of another introduced species and the moths and bugs that help control Salvation Jane. Hardly success stories.
Saying they "might" do some good is irresponsible and has been proven wrong time and time again in the past.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby Nuts » Tue 03 May, 2016 9:41 am

I doubt they'll 'aim' to leave 10%. Whether it's said or no, like the carp, an acknowledgement of capability.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby maddog » Tue 03 May, 2016 2:35 pm

G’day icefest,

The Cactoblastis moth is another example of a species introduced to deal with another species. It would seem obvious to state that some introduced species are a problem, a great number of are useful, while others are largely benign.

The horses, though they have happily co-existed with the environment for the last 100 or so years, are now said to be placing too great a strain of the environment due to their (slowly) increasing numbers (squashing peatmoss, compacting soil, rubbing on trees, eating herbs, muddying water, etc.). If the plan to reduce their numbers by 90% was successful, it would be fair to assume the future impact of the remaining horses would be commensurate with their numbers – i.e. close to negligible.

It is also the case that, given that we no longer live in a Garden of Eden, if we subtract an introduced species from a landscape in which it played a part, we can create new problems – many of which may be worse than the one we attempted to solve.

Previous threads have considered the impact of the removal of cats on islands - not all good. Other examples of naturalised Australians are Camphor Laurels providing sustenance to many frugivorous birds and Lantana / Blackberry as essential habitat for endangered small to medium sized marsupials, without which predation would be all too easy. Removing such plants without careful landscape planning would be to witness ecological disaster (as it was with the cats).

It is worth reflecting, as you impose your simplistic ideas, that the road to hell was paved with good intentions.

G’day Nuts,

I suspect that you are correct in that the 90% figure is a recognition of what is logistically possible. It is also perhaps an attempt to reassure a key stakeholder in the process that the free living brumby will remain, albeit in reduced, manageable, numbers.

The NPWS have a difficult job selling this one, a job not made easy by the fanatics on both sides of the debate.

Cheers,

Maddog.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby LachlanB » Tue 03 May, 2016 4:16 pm

Maddog,
If all attempts at ecological restoration in Australia are simply the pavers on the road to hell, I'd like to be first on the road to hell.

We've seriously destabilised the environment of this country over the last 250 years. IMO, the least we can do is try to undo and ameliorate some of that impact.
If thinking we have a duty of care to our environment makes me a fanatic, so be it. I'll happily be a fanatic for that.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby north-north-west » Wed 04 May, 2016 4:28 pm

Maddog - the horses may be happy with cohabitation with the environment, but the natural ecosystems are less so, and to suggest otherwise is both ingenuous and scientifically illogical.

We are talking about a country that evolved over millions of years without hard-hoofed animals, large or small. Introducing large hard-hoofed animals to those environments cannot - and demonstrably does not - have anything other than a negative impact on those ecosystems. Every serious scientifically-based study going back over a century has come to that conclusion, which is why cattle grazing was phased out in the KNP back in the 60s.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby maddog » Wed 04 May, 2016 8:17 pm

G’day Lachlan,

Nice Motherhood statement.

NNW,

If you believe the current population of free-living brumbies are having a negative impact on the ecosystem, it would certainly be illogical to suggest reducing their numbers by 90% would be of little benefit, or that the remaining 10% would have a comparable impact. Though, taken in context, this would appear to be your ingenuous argument.

Cheers,

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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby north-north-west » Thu 05 May, 2016 5:26 pm

Any long term reduction has to be an improvement, but my basic argument is that heritage has no place in the debate and we should aim for total eradication, despite the wilful blindness of the animal rights groups.
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Re: NSW plans to wipe out 90% of Snowy Mountains Brumbies

Postby Zingiberaceae » Fri 06 May, 2016 12:42 pm

After finding a herd of brumbies starving to death in the snow I sat down and had a good long think about what horses in the high country mean, and what arguments we use to defend them. That article is here: https://wordsandwilds.wordpress.com/201 ... by-debate/, and I published some further thoughts over on the Wild Magazine website some time afterwards.

But the short answer is that everyone agrees that the brumbies need to be managed (for their own sake as much as for the external environment - the deaths in the snow were drawn-out and painful to watch). What we cannot agree on is how many need to be removed, and in what way.
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